1. 06-24-2011, 07:44 PM<br />Hi i was just wondering if you could detail the differences in how you were before, and how you are now after you feel you have cracked? What differences has it made to your life?thanksneeeel<br />06-24-2011, 07:56 PM<br />Hi man,well I gues the main difference is that things are clearer, real real obvious and clearer, I know thats an annoying answer, but thats how it is.How does THAT affect your life? Well seeing things as they are instead of what is perceived through the sense of self is the life changing bit I guess. No need to feel bad about unimportant things, no need to watch the behaviour of the 'self', no need to improve the 'self', because the truth of it(I know the word truth is cringy), is what is actually clear.Dont think for a second that this will stop you from being sad or angry again in your life, its just seeing at it is.If you have the concept down , I mean if truly admit that you 'feel' a self, yet know theoretically that it does not exist in real life. Then you will have no trouble cracking it. And I know you probably dont like when we say **** like quot;
you are not honestquot;
in the thread, but what that often means is quot;
you will not admit your experiencing this, you will just argue it to the groundquot;
.Have you cracked it already?Much to my shock, atheists are the hardest to get this through to. (im one btw), because they already KNOW the theory, but they know it so damn well that they will not admit to feeling that self (maybe they dont but its quite obvious once they start engaging)<br />06-24-2011, 08:06 PM<br />Re: you cracked!<br />hi, it has been going though my mind a lot during the last few days, since I read this thread and some other stuff on ruthless truth, and I would say that i consider it a fair chance that it is likely true. Whether I can actually throw off the I, or even if I want to( lol that doesnt make sense), is another question. <br />Well you see man you're not actually throwing off anything, you're just seeing it wasnt there. I know at the moment thats probably a bit arrogant of me to say, but ill explain a little better in a sec. <br />I did have a wierd moment lying in bed where it was like my head cleared, or everything became levelled out, or its hard to describe really but it didnt last long <br />These are glimpses, while glimpses are interesting and what not they are dodgy because they tend to send people on bullsh11t spiritual journeys and what not. Best thing to do is forget about and concentrate on what im actually talking about here.<br />You say theres no need to watch the behaviour of the self, but surely there still needs to be some monitoring, to be able to function in society, or is that why all enlightened people get the **** out and live on their own?<br />Ok reservations are good, real good, I had loads of reservations, I was accusing the guy helping me of trying to take away my happiness, lol.But just to address what im saying here. There is monitoring of the life, just like an animal monitors its life. Animals clean themselves, animals socialise (well , in their own way you know what i mean). We're just animals so we carry to do things as we always have. Im never for a second denying the existence of a body and brain, and its this body and brain that functions as it always has , only it just doesnt hold a belief which for alot (not all) only gets in the way of what the life is actually trying to do.You probably know this but the body is just a machine really, a really really advanced machine, nothing more. The brain is like a giant computer motherboard, but the difference is, its so fvcking good, so fvcking advanced that it creates thoughts that are not even needed in life. Why? Well Im not sure, seeing no self is also an understanding that there doesnt have to be a why. But why really ? well I think our intelligence has caused a need to justify EVERYTHING, and the self is a nice very easy answer to alot of random stuff thats going on in the head.I also think there was another huge contributor, language, the words you , me , I , your name, everything is drilled into you from a young age, the act as affirmations,every single day these words are hammered home, and you really listen to these words. Yes these words are needed to identify the difference between this body and that body, but really humans tend to take on a whole new meaning of them , really let them sink to the point where they truly feel a 'me', a sort of extra 'me'.You have the concept nailed, but if you're interested keep in touch. Its just looking thats all. You're just simply looking at something that was actually always the case,just you never looked at it 'like that' if you get me.Most people are insulted by this, but alot of people are open to it too.To sum up, its basically no longer living something which you already know in theory is not true.But sure keep in touch if you're interested!<br />06-25-2011, 01:22 PM<br />I understand the theory, but when I look, it seems like there is something that is the quot;
Iquot;
. <br />Yes it does seem so but now I think you should have a look where? Like literally answer where that 'seems' you talk of actually is?<br /> For example, I understand that the quot;
Iquot;
may not be part of the decision to go get a drink of water, or have something to eat, but what about deciding whether to , say, go to university to do a course. This takes into account all your preferences, interests, etc, and is not something that will be generated by biological functions, as getting a drink of water probably is? Is it that your preferences and interests are all an illusion too, and are used by the organism to get what it wants, food, water, shelter and procreation? <br />Well you see while I say we are just animals, which we are, its important to remember we are highly highly intelligent, whatever happened, over the last million years(or whatever) our brains developed beyond anything any other animal could come even close to. So yes, decisions are made, the decision arises in the brain to get water. The decision also arises in the brain of whether to go to college or do a course or whatever. Its not 'your' decision. But just because there is no self doesnt mean a decision has to be necessarily to do with direct survival. Humans are intelligent so we enjoy stuff. Just like a dog seems to like playing fetch or whatever. We dont need to be in survival mode for every decision made, sometimes we do things because they are simply enjoyable. What im saying is there is no self needed for these things to be enjoyable. There never was a self needed. I know at the moment it may sound impossible, quot;
but surely there is a self needed, im enjoying my'self'quot;
whatever, but really there isnt, its just life doing something it likes, just like other animals do. <br />What about things like depression?<br />Most people who became 'enlightened' came from a background of depression, usually suffering brought them to a point where they realized that they were completely seeing the world through a perception of self. And it was so negative it would even lead people to near suicide. They questioned the self and then click. quot;
Holy **** what the hell was I thinking???quot;
BUT, BUT, BUT, you dont have to be depressed to see this. That is for sure. I wasnt. This is just about seeing something true. And seeing something true allows you to deal with situations without blockage of BS self.I also acknowledge that a lot goes on quot;
under the surfacequot;
or subconsciously that affects what the quot;
Iquot;
seems to choose. I know there have been times where the quot;
Iquot;
, or the ego, have held me back and made me perform less well in doing things.This is the belief though, that there is an quot;
Iquot;
or quot;
egoquot;
TO hold you back. Yes there are alot of signals sent back and forth and what not, but having read more about the brain Im starting to understand what enlightenment actually. I think when you crack it you are physically breaking connections that were nothing but a feedback loop attaching fears or whatever stuff to thoughts. Not sure though, but I do know that the brain is constantly making and breaking connections as you learn and forget etc. This one is dug in deep id say though.But I try and stay from the science, well I read it for myself, and yes it adds credibility , BUT believing this is pointless. And thats the problem with cool youtube vids or what not. You'll just end up believing it. But you need to actually look at this yourself.You dont need videos or anything fancy, just look and maybe get a bit of help. But some have been liberated from just reading blogs by people on Ruthless Truth and this free book also helps , its an easy read id highly recommend it, I still read it after liberation.http://www.mediafire.com/?73x9ap155nh20ey<br />Hi, this has been going through my head non stop for the last 2 days, and its starting to make me feel a little crazy.<br />That aint craziness, thats just discomfort at the fact that a belief is being challenged, and challenged like it never has before. If it doesnt make someone uncomfortable they are either liberated already or they are just really strong minded. I felt uncomfortable as well<br />I guess that rather than thinking about it, I should just quot;
seequot;
it , whatever that means, but that sounds too much like religious bs/leap of faith to me<br />Ok forget the religious crap, you probably gathered from my posts that I hate all that crap as well.So what are you actually looking at that makes this seem like a leap of faith? (which you know yourself sounds cheesy) Your looking at something that you CONCEPTUALLY UNDERSTAND IS ALREADY TRUE. You know there is no extra entity or you yet you still feel it. So you are looking at the fact there is no you. Thats what you are looking at.Lets take a bit of an analogy to make it easier, suppose you met someone who believed a monster was floating around the room, because basically his whole life he was told there was a monster all around him, now suppose he couldnt see it, but still believed, this is an illusion, you know its true but he doesnt, now lets presume hes mentally sane (as in not schizophrenic or anything), and you were to tell him to look. He'll ask what do I look at? Look at reality, engage in reality, engage in the fact that there is no monster. Compare everything real to the monster. So when he tries to find the monster he cant, then one day he comes back and says to you quot;
Holy **** what was I thinkingquot;
, he starts laughing and tells you the monster thing was a load of crap, just a belief. Its gone, he knows now it aint true. Im not saying the beleif of self is a monster but im just using the analogy to point out to you that you MUST LOOK AT WHAT IS ACTUALLY REAL!!! The body is real, the brain is damn real, everything is, but what about that quot;
feelingquot;
, what the hell is that? Where did it come from? What actually is the self? Have a look for it.Im talking about what is real and what is not here. This isnt about leaps of faith whatsoever , its actually on a par with someone looking to see if the world is actually round or flat. There was a belief, they looked, and they saw for real the world aint flat.So, looking, and thinking, I have come to the conclusion that I dont control my movement, dont control automatic reactions like sneezing and blinking etc. <br />They are completely involuntary so Id just ignore them, they have nothing to do with the 'control' im talking about. <br />I dont control when I feel hungry, tired or thirsty. <br />Yes the life is hungry <br />If there is an quot;
Iquot;
, a controller, then there is a line over which, function is taken over automatically by nervous system/brain/body whatever.So what could be on the side of the line of quot;
Iquot;
? say you offer me an apple and an orange, do quot;
Iquot;
choose? Aaagh its all so stupid, its like I am trying to chop off a part of me, which you say doesnt exist, which seems not to exist, so how can I chop it off if it doesnt exist? Existence is all there is , and existence includes the illusion of ego.<br />Ok , YOU ARE NOT CHOPPING OFF ANYTHING!! THERE IS NOTHING TO CHOP OFF. This is the belief , this is the mind making excuses , you've just said yourself it seems not real yet you feel there is still something being chopped. Look at the fact there is nothing to chop off.<br />Onto another thing that is bothering me. Im sure these questions would get ripped to shreds on ruthlesstruth, <br />People like honesty on RT, thats all we ask for, seriously, it gets aggressive from time to time, but only with some people, people that are not being honest. If you hide these questions from people on RT they will not know you are thinking them, and will thus not point you in the right direction. So seriously dont worry about that.<br /> I dont have posting rights there yet, so you will have to do it I guess( are u a red or blue on RT?)<br />Im wylo (red), colours are just practicality, just dont listen to greens , they are figuring it out themselves, reds arent any more in the know than blues, they just have a bit more experience at catching the illusion thats all.If something doesnt exist, then it cant have an effect right?so if someone has a fear of dogs, and an quot;
Iquot;
does exist, then the quot;
Iquot;
is telling them that they have a fear of dogs, therefore there is fear of dogsif someone has a fear of dogs, and the quot;
Iquot;
doesnt exist, but is just an afterthought giving the illusion of quot;
Iquot;
, then the organism has a fear of dogs, therefore there is fear of dogs.So, either the quot;
Iquot;
has an effect, ie causing fear when I see a dog, therefore it existsOr, it doesnt exist, but the same behaviour occurs, ie fear when i see a dogIf the same behaviour occurs if quot;
Iquot;
exists, and if quot;
Iquot;
doesnt exist, then why does it matter if it exists or not? How is freeing myself from an quot;
Iquot;
going to make any difference in any way if the same behaviours occur? If we get different behaviours then something must have changed right? and the something that changed must have existed to have an effect. <br />ok good question, but you are forgetting one fundamental thing ,a BELIEF CAN affect peoples emotions, scientifically , thinking something is true can affect your emotions, true,you are not getting rid of anything, your just seeing its not true and that is what gives you the opportunity to actually engage with life properly. Go back to the guy with the belief of the monster, if he is afraid of the monster then he is experiencing fear, there is literally a connection in the brain between the fear and a thought of the monster. When he sees its BS that connection is gone because there is no monster.This goes back to you presuming its true and that it is somehow 'removed'.I remember saying quot;
how do I delete the self??quot;
There is nothing TO delete.But listen man, people do get into this often because they are fed of being emotionally tied to ridiculous stuff, but I seriously think you should have an another motivation. A more important, you are now at a point where you admit you are experiencing something which doesnt seem true. This should be your motivation, see what the hell IS true. The word truth is korny, but its actually what were talking about here. Engaging with what is true and what is not. To me, God aint true, I want proof. This is how you should feel about the self, you should be demanding proof by looking.<br />I can almost see through this arguement, its sort of hovering on the edge of sight, but its gone.<br />Good your on the right track but you need to actually focus and look at the fact that you dont exist.Like i said, arguement and logic is probably not the way to see the truth( although you would think it is), but this is my way of looking for the self, to see if its thereneeeel<br />Nothing wrong with reservations, so long as you dont start using them as an excuse not to look, believe me , the mind will come with many excuses before just saying quot;
FVck it, I gotta lookquot;
Im going to copy and paste some experiments for you that I wrote in my blog, this is the stuff I started doing to really check if the self is real or not. But really try do them, what have you to lose??? The self? Nope , that aint even there !!<br />http://theselfisfalse.blogspot.com/p/what-do-i-do.html<br />Anyway keep at it man ,seriously, and remember seeing something that aint true means it was never true, which means life goes on. Your job, relationships, everything, it all goes on as it was, but with clarity instead of self centredness. Keep in touch Adrian<br />ok, so, there is no I, there never was, there is just a bunch of stuff happening in reality which a conscious phyisical being reacts to through instinct and current knowledge, and then places it in a narrative( to try and make sense of the world?or Why?)<br />not sure why, ill leave that to the scientists, two theories, justification for stuff, ( the need to have a source /answer to everything, even thoughts), and the other theory is affirmations, from birth , its all about quot;
youquot;
, quot;
iquot;
,your quot;
selfquot;
, all that **** can create a fairly significant dug in belief.<br />Like, when Im playing poker, i didnt lose $x, there was a bunch of stimuli, which triggered reactions through knowledge and emotions , and beliefs i guess,( was going to say, which i reacted to, which is correct I guess in the sense of my physical body and brain) and caused output via moving fingers and clicking buttons. How could I lose money when there is no me to have money, and no way for there to be a me in which to own it. <br />FOCUS ON THIS, really, do it!! <br />where does the anger and upset come in then? If there is no I to want anything, why do (I) get angry, or rather why is there anger?<br />Anger is just anger , the life is anger , its not 'your' anger, its just anger. A bloody bee gets angry, do you think a bee holds the same beliefs of I as humans do??<br />I keep catching myself saying quot;
I thinkquot;
or quot;
I wantquot;
and then changing it to quot;
there are thoughtsquot;
or whatever. <br />So you see there is no 'I' needed for movement or other stuff? why should there be an I needed for thoughts, nothing wrong with the word, it differentiates humans.Dont try and change anything, just look at the fact that there was no I in the first place. Try and see exactly where the thoughts are coming from. There is no control over thoughts, yes, I can say pink elephant and a pink elephant will pop up in your head, but there is no control really, there is no stopping that thought from arising when I say it. <br />If there is no I then who, or what is noticing the thoughts as they surface and fall back?I dont think Im quite there yet.<br />No your not , you need to look, the brain is noticing the thoughts, a thought of a thought if you will, no you in any of this, just the brain and thoughts bouncing around. Itd be worth doing those experiments as much as you can, not just once. When you have a conversation, just after the sentence try and think was there really a 'you' in it or did the brain/mouth/etc just come out with the words?When you walk, really try and see whats controlling the exact movement of legs, there is no 'you' controlling them, just theres no you anywhere.You cannot ignore the 'you', because that would imply it actually exists!!You have to push for it, really! Its simple, its not clever, its just obvious reality thats all, but you still have to jump yourself not wait for instructions.Help along the way is great, and ill help, or anyone on RT or whatever I dont care, but its really about taking responsibilty for it on your own.Keep us postedAdrian!<br />So, have I got this right, we are nothing more than biological computers, that takes input( thoughts and memories also count as input), compute on that input and then decide upon an action? There is no me anywhere? in the same way that theres no I in a computer. My god, it seems so real, but there seems to be no other conclusion. Its all an illusion? So where does that leave things like relationships? How can there be relationships between 2 computers.<br />How can there be relationships between 2 computers.When you say computer stop thinking of it like your PC at home, the life is like a computer but vastly vastly more intelligent, and capable of emotions. Seriously , this is more excuses not to look , its like you get the theory but now your just finding ways out. Just LOOK AT THE FACT YOU DONT EXIST!! Its simple. Its just obvious. <br /> What about likes and dislikes? I hate sprouts, what does that mean in this context?<br />FFS,It means the life hates sprouts, no biggy, my dog loves potato skins but my cat hates them. Seriously, look!! <br />what about where 1 computer does a hurtful act to another computer, which appears to come from 1 quot;
mequot;
to another quot;
mequot;
. <br />Note the word appears. There is no you to commit the hurtful act, just like on the flip side, there is no you NOT to commit a hurful act. There is no you to take responsibility, its just taking responsibility.<br />If this is true then doesnt it mean that it doesnt matter if you kill someone, or u rape them, or whatever. There is only experience, there is no self to hurt. OF COURSE!! it makes sense, when a lion kills an antelope there is no feeling of remorse or intent to hurt quot;
mentallyquot;
or whatever.<br />look, humans have different emotions to lions, and are more intelligent, if I hurt someone there is remorse (unless its deserved of course). Again your holding this at arms length and making a project out of it.Does the antelope hate the lion? I doubt it. There will be fear, which triggers the fight or flight, other than that, it is just the course of life.Why doesnt this imply anarchy and just people doing whatever they want? is it because quot;
what people want to doquot;
is an illusion based on the fantasy of self? Is there rape in the animal kingdom? <br />Why SHOULD there be anarchy? That has nothing to do with anything, there never was a self , so why would there be anarchy all the sudden ? Humans are humans, they always will be, there never was a self, just seeing the fact that its an illusion wont cause people to run riot.Seriously your avoiding this **** again.<br />This must be why religion has such a hold. We have a sense of self, we deep down know its an illusion because nothing can be outside of reality. But if there is something greater than us, something that is outside reality, then that implies that the quot;
Iquot;
can exist too. In fact, all the quot;
Iquot;
's are the gods. All things, objects and possessions are just a big monument to quot;
Iquot;
, the bigger the pile, the more proof of quot;
Iquot;
neeeel<br />I hope to fvck you are looking at it from THEIR point of view (i.e. religious people) and not yours when you wrote that!!Listen man, stop holding this at arms length, stop making a science project out of it, stop making a philosophy out of it and just fvcking jump in, get dirty and look , in real life.Stop hiding in every little corner you can just to defend the belief with all this hypothetical BS. Seriously , there is no self, there is no you, there never was, you cant ignore it cause its not there, you cant delete it cause its not there, there is not even a you to get liberated, its just liberation.LOOK at that.<br />I have been looking. Its what has been bringing up all these questions. And the bit where u say I hope to **** you are looking at it from their point of view, yes I am, all i meant was that god is a justification in their own mindfor believing the self is real. ie If god is outside of reality, then an quot;
Iquot;
can be outside reality too. I dont believe in all that ****. The pile of possessions is proof to themselves that the quot;
Iquot;
exists, it doesnt mean that I think it exists because people have possessions<br />Ok cool, I thought that alright but just wanted to make sure.<br />Yes I feel I am conceptualizing it too much but I dont know what else to do.<br />Look at it with your eyes, look at how real everything else is. Look at the memories of the past, was there really a you in it? OR Did it just simply happen?As I said, I have been looking. Walking down the street I am noticing what thoughts come up, what triggers them off, what happens. So, Im walking along *Feels the sun* , feeling of enjoyment, memories generated of previous sunny days. *sees a car* - body looks in car window to check reflection.*someone gets in way* anger and frustration generated and thought of quot;
****in idiotquot;
appears. I can see that every thought and feeling that happens is either generated from input from the environment, or sometimes from seemingly random thoughts that occur. <br />That last bit is real good, and thats really important, there is no you creating those thoughts, they just randomly happen sometimes. Theres no need to go chasing every thought , just look at the fact you dont exist at all. You never did.<br /> I can follow chains of thought as one thought brings up another thought brings up another etc. I dont understand what else I am supposed to do. I dont know what else Im supposed to look at.<br />Your looking at something that is obvious and true, and comparing it to what it not obvious and what is not true the self, the belief.Im not trying to defend the belief at all. I am trying to squash the doubts that come up ( eg quot;
why do I like sproutsquot;
) . I can see that the quot;
Iquot;
doesnt exist, and yet I still experience it( or the organism does or whatever)<br />The organism plays off a belief. But there is no you in any of that, quot;
Humans are humans, they always will bequot;
If humans will be humans ( do the same things and act the same way)even when they realise there is no self, then it doesnt make any difference whether they realise it or not. That is what I was getting at.<br />I dont understand what else I am supposed to do<br />Humans will always be humans, finally seeing something for what it is will not stop a human from being a human, but they wont be consumed by BS and lies. Thats the important part. I wouldnt get too into the results.Forget about results. Keep the motivation by acknowleding you are experiencing something that aint real. Look at that bit. Thats the important bit.When you see this you'll understand. Describe the self, as much as you can, write as much as you can about it , with as much truth and honesty as possible! Give it a bit of thought, dont just rush into it. IF you rush in it mightnt be actual truth, if you dig deep and then describe then there will be a bit of thought put into it.<br />Not sure if you mean describe what I have found out about the self through looking, what I think the self is, what the self appears to be, or all of the above, anyway will take my time and send it in next day or so<br />all of the above, you can never write too much!! But remember , , actually look at it, like read back on my last post to you , about memory of you , was there a you needed. Look at real objects and see they are real, the self is not.Really push and focus on this. There is no you. That fact, look at that.<br />....<br />(next post), this is the start of my reply to his description)<br />**** , thought I posted it but it was too long, I deleted some of the bits I quoted from you, but you know what you said, if you cant remember read back on the sent message.Hey man , fantastic honest post, really, alot of clarity and truth there,I dont know if your there yet but you truly see now that all you need do is look , just do that last push, the simple obvious thing after everything you've written ...quot;
Is there an I at all???quot;
Can you see that? Is there a difference between before and after this conversation? An actual difference? Not just a conceptual difference?anyway Ill dig in here!<br />well, here it isI will try to keep this focused, and not wander off into too many ifs and conjecture, but it may happen now and again. When I use I and we eg “ what did I think the self was” , I am not saying that they exist, just that its the only way I can write .<br />cool, has to be done. the fact that you see that is honesty in itself. <br />What did I think the self was?It seemed like the self was an actual entity, that sat in your head, made decisions, thought about things, looked at things, was in control of the body. The self had attributes, like shy, happy, sad, funny, etc. When you thought of memories, the memory was like a picture, a photograph, with you in the centre doing stuff, or feeling stuff. The you went around like someone on holiday taking snapshots or videos of everything, and these were the memories. When you planned for the future, or thought about stuff you wanted, there was the quot;
You”, again in an imaginary picture, doing the things you thought of, or standing proudly with the object of your desire. Other people are also in these pictures, again with attributes attached, and playing a part in the story of your life. <br />Seriously seriously solid, this is the bit that needs to completely focused on for real.<br />The “You” chose what subjects to think about, thought about them, and came up with conclusions.<br />Well there was just choice on what subjects to think of , there was no you in any form whatsoever. Its just an idea that there was you. (maybe you're actually saying this already I just didnt read it properly?)These same thoughts, or sense of self are still here. <br />Tell me where though? Yes there are thoughts of course, just thoughts, no self, where is this sense of self?Is it still there ? And if so where is it?To find out if this view is correct, I was advised to simply look. If we want to see if a ball is blue, we don’t go into conjecture about, well , if the ball is blue then this this and this must happen, so therefore blah blah . We just look at the ball and say, “it is blue” or “it is not blue”<br />Absolute gold, you know what looking means now you gotta do it.What did I find out by looking?Is there an “I” that controls motor functions? No, walking, moving all occur without control. When you walk, do you think “ok, now contract that muscle and move this part of body and .......”? No. <br />Yep <br />IS there an “I” that controls bodily functions? No, feeling tired, hungry etc occur of their own accord. Although it seems to be possible for the brain to delay acting on the signals. I don’t control when to breathe, when to sweat, or when an itch occurs. <br />Yep, now thats understood by everyone though, remember Im not talking about complete involuntary things, im talking about conversations, actual movements, the things that people believe the quot;
Iquot;
is doing. People already know that stuff is completely involuntary.<br />Is there an “I” that makes decisions? This is a more difficult one for me, but on a certain level at least I can see that there isn’t. <br />Well there is no levels, really, its either seeing it or not, yep that one is a confusing one, probably the most confusing, but really look at it, is there really a 'you' making those desicions at all? Desicions arise, they are not yours, quot;
Youquot;
dont create them. Look at that. <br />When Im crossing a road I don’t consciously decide to look left and right, although it seems as if I do sometimes. Higher level decisions still seem to come from an I, but I can conceptually understand that they probably don’t.<br />Ok this is more what im talking about in terms of voluntary vs involuntary. Really look at it, there is no you making those decisions. Look at that. There is no you at all. You know there is no you in other things, why should there be a you making those decisions. Really look at that for real. Focus on reality , and all that is real.Is there an I that sees, hears and processes? No, seeing hearing and processing is happening all the time, every single second of your life.<br />Cool, the life sees it, just like a bug sees stuff, does a bug really have an I? I doubt it.Is there an I that is thinking? No, thoughts occur in response to stimuli from the environment , or are triggered by thoughts( a chain of thought), or occur randomly due to the brain carrying on processing even when “we” aren’t aware of it! Even when it seems like “I” am thinking, eg “think of something random”, there is still no I doing it. There is a delay while the brain comes up with some random thought, or searches the experiences of the day for a thought. And there is no “I” saying “think of something random”, that is just another thought that has been generated by input or is a random thought. Or when a question pops up eg “what is 2 + 2” and then the answer pops up “4”. Is there really 2 different entities in there, one asking, one answering? If there are , which one is me? Both? Neither? Question and answer both appear to come from the same source, and since that source is the brain, then there is no “I” ( yes, this is a hypothesis, or conjecture I suppose), there is thought and answering thought, or thought , and thought generated by processing the thought.<br />Exactly man, its all just thought, it can come and go as it likes, there is no control over, there is no you to create it or get rid of it. If something major happens in your life like you have a new career, new job and your starting tomorrow, can you quot;
not think about itquot;
, nope , there is no control over the thought, it will keep arising.Is there an “I” in memories? This would appear to be easy to answer, of course there’s an “I” there, we can see it, in the picture, doing the act, feeling the feelings. But this is wrong. Firstly, the “I” in the picture is a false picture. We picture ourselves as taller, more handsome, more intelligent, blah blah blah, we attribute motives to the players in the memory, and read into the memory things that weren’t there. The memories are also selective, it’s not a true experience of what it was like to be there at that time. We remember the parts of it that were important to us, or that were coloured by beliefs. There is no “I” in memories, they are simply memories, or thoughts of memories. Memories are triggered by stimuli coming in from outside the brain, or by thoughts within the brain.<br />Exactly, memories are just memories, there really is no you in any of it, its just thoughts, even when it happened there was no you. It just happened. There was no control.Next time your in a conversation, try and catch yourself, try and see straight after if there was REALLY a you needed for the conversation needed?Is there an “I” in thoughts of the future? No, as it says, they are just thoughts. The brain is processing information about the future, and putting up possible scenarios as thoughts.<br />Yep,Just thoughts, an no control over them.Is there an “I” that is at least monitoring thoughts? This is the one that seems most like an “I”, the thing that recognises thoughts, monitors them, maybe even decides to what to do about them. [QUOTE]The monitoring is just a thought, look at that, exactly where is the monitoring? Is this the you? The monitoring, well look and see? Is it just monitoring, i.e. a thought, or is it you monitoring them? And if it is you monitoring them then where is that you?Is there an “I” that is at least monitoring thoughts? This is the one that seems most like an “I”, the thing that recognises thoughts, monitors them, maybe even decides to what to do about them. Given that there seems to be no “I” anywhere else, it seems unlikely that there is one here either. <br />It seems unlikely because its true. But you have to look to see this yourself. <br />It has to be the brain monitoring its own thoughts. An “I” that is just monitoring thoughts is useless, since we have shown above that an “I” has no effect on any other part of behaviour, so even if there was an “I” that just monitored thoughts, it would have no power to affect anything in any way.<br />Exactly man, really look at though, you are pushing it I know that, but you gotta really focus and look at it.How does the non existent “I” have an effect on behaviour.( this part is probably mostly conjecture)If something doesn’t exist, how can it have an effect? Well, it doesn’t exist, but thoughts, or beliefs of it exist. In the same way that beliefs about dogs being dangerous can affect your behaviour, beliefs in an “I” can as well. So if I believe that there is an “I” , and believe “I” deserve to be rewarded for working hard, then if no reward is forthcoming, there is a disparity between what I believe, and what actually happened in reality. <br />FVcking Solid, so you see exactly why the belief is affecting behaviour, well why dont you truly look at the fact that you dont exist. Just the body, the behaviour is affect by nonsense beliefs. See it as just a belief, an illusion. Just look at that. There is no you anywhere, not just no you quot;
in the bodyquot;
. There is no you to ignore. There never was. THere is no you to even crack this. There is no you to be liberated. Its just liberation. Look at that ,really focus on that bit.<br />I know that disparity between what I want and what actually happens is the greatest cause of my own unhappiness and depression, although Im not really sure how it has this effect.( yes, there is no “I” to be unhappy or depressed, but the feelings are there)thanksneeeel<br />Remember man, push for it, stay away from the concept, you already know this, im just reminding you.REally look at it first hand, like you the blue ball example. Look at objects first hand, look at them for real. They are real. A smell is real, its a gas, a feeling is real, its nerves. Now back to the self, its a sense based on nothing. Theres nothing to back it up , really push and look at this. There is no you at all ever to crack this. Its not about chopping or ignoring, its about simply looking at what is already true, and what you actually conceptually know is already true.Just look at it for real. Cause you already know its ridiculously obvious!!!<br />Next post, some of this will be seen above written by me but Im putting it in again so you can see what hes quoting<br />Originally Posted by adecleir<br />Hey man , fantastic honest post, really, alot of clarity and truth there,I dont know if your there yet but you truly see now that all you need do is look , just do that last push, the simple obvious thing after everything you've written ...quot;
Is there an I at all???quot;
Can you see that? Is there a difference between before and after this conversation? An actual difference? Not just a conceptual difference?<br />Thanks. I still dont think I am there yet. Everything is clearer, its like a layer of cotton wool has been removed, but there is still the reluctance to say quot;
there is no Iquot;
even though all the evidence is there. Im not sure what that is about.<br />Originally Posted by adecleir<br />Well there was just choice on what subjects to think of , there was no you in any form whatsoever. Its just an idea that there was you. (maybe you're actually saying this already I just didnt read it properly?)<br />Yes, this was just a description of what I thought the self was, before I started all this.<br />Originally Posted by adecleir<br />Tell me where though? Yes there are thoughts of course, just thoughts, no self, where is this sense of self?Is it still there ? And if so where is it?<br />I quot;
knowquot;
that they are just thoughts. but truly seeing it, I dont know, its like there is a little voice going quot;
here i amquot;
even though I know its just thoughts.<br />Originally Posted by adecleir<br />Cool, the life sees it, just like a bug sees stuff, does a bug really have an I? I doubt it.<br />Well, the fact that a bug doesnt have an I doesnt necessarily imply that we dont, since we are much more complex.( I am just saying, it doesnt mean I am saying that it does exist)<br />Originally Posted by adecleir<br />There is no you anywhere, not just no you quot;
in the bodyquot;
. There is no you to ignore. There never was. THere is no you to even crack this. There is no you to be liberated. Its just liberation. Look at that ,really focus on that bit.<br />Yes, the quot;
Iquot;
is not getting liberated, the brain is simply seeing through a belief, or illusion. There is no I to get liberated.<br />Originally Posted by adecleir<br />Remember man, push for it, stay away from the concept, you already know this, im just reminding you.REally look at it first hand, like you the blue ball example. Look at objects first hand, look at them for real. They are real. A smell is real, its a gas, a feeling is real, its nerves. Now back to the self, its a sense based on nothing. Theres nothing to back it up , really push and look at this. There is no you at all ever to crack this. Its not about chopping or ignoring, its about simply looking at what is already true, and what you actually conceptually know is already true.<br />Yes, I need to push but I dont really know how. I am looking at objects, noticing that they are there, that they are real ( sounds stupid, what else could they be) . I read your thread on RT and it seems that helped you, but I havent found that next step yet. Like someone said in your thread, I think I am looking for a state, or think that I have to do something in order for it to happen.I get that I just have to look at stuff thats real, and then look for the self and see that it isnt real, it just isnt happening.Things have changed for me a lot, things that would have driven me mad or got me in a mess of emotions and thoughts just havent been bothering me any more. I notice that the triggering emotions are still there, but they dont seem to have the same effect. I went into a shop and there was just this feeling of experience, the shopkeeper was staring at me( or looking at me anyway) and that would have worried me before, there was still emotion but there was also a feeling of flow, of event following event, enter shop ask for item pay money receive change leave shop, all experienced as is, with no colour added. I still dont think Im done yet though. Will keep looking.neeeel<br />Originally Posted by neeeelThanks. I still dont think I am there yet. Everything is clearer, its like a layer of cotton wool has been removed, but there is still the reluctance to say quot;
there is no Iquot;
even though all the evidence is there. Im not sure what that is about.<br />Why the reluctance? Why is there reluctance to say something which is obvious and true, something you either see now , have seen briefly, or at least about to see if anything, so long as you look. Its not just about the experiments and things I sent to you , its about just simply looking at something that is true, there is no you, anywhere, you cant look for a you, cause its not there to look for.<br />Quote:<br />I quot;
knowquot;
that they are just thoughts. but truly seeing it, I dont know, its like there is a little voice going quot;
here i amquot;
even though I know its just thoughts.<br />Exactly , its just another thought, nothing more , look at that. There is no you to even think that, its just a thought arising.<br />Quote:<br />Well, the fact that a bug doesnt have an I doesnt necessarily imply that we dont, since we are much more complex.( I am just saying, it doesnt mean I am saying that it does exist)<br />Well you either think it or you dont, this is where raw honesty is needed, its pointless telling me the correct concepts and then coming out from time to time with an argument like that. You need to be front with an argument like that. Its not about trying to please me. Theres no point in just believing me, you have to check it yourself.<br />Quote:<br />Yes, the quot;
Iquot;
is not getting liberated, the brain is simply seeing through a belief, or illusion. There is no I to get liberated.<br />Focus on this bit, absolute truth here.<br />Quote:<br />Yes, I need to push but I dont really know how. I am looking at objects, noticing that they are there, that they are real ( sounds stupid, what else could they be) . I read your thread on RT and it seems that helped you, but I havent found that next step yet. Like someone said in your thread, I think I am looking for a state, or think that I have to do something in order for it to happen.<br />That seems to be what your doing, waiting for the big parade to arrive down with party hats and whistles saying quot;
WELL DONE NEEEEL YOU'VE CROSSED THE FINISH LINEquot;
. No man its a subtle shift, but while subtle its still obvious that the belief is over.<br />Quote:<br />I get that I just have to look at stuff thats real, and then look for the self and see that it isnt real, it just isnt happening.<br />Its not just about that, there is no self to look FOR. Your getting caught in a loop with this objects/self/objects/self thing. Just LOOK, look at the FACT you dont exist. Like looking at the FACT the spaghetti monster flying around the room doesnt exist<br />Quote:<br />Things have changed for me a lot, things that would have driven me mad or got me in a mess of emotions and thoughts just havent been bothering me any more.<br />There is no you to bother, its just life.<br />Quote:<br />I notice that the triggering emotions are still there, but they dont seem to have the same effect.<br />Thats cause they are just emotions, look at that. They are not 'your' emotions, they never were.<br />I went into a shop and there was just this feeling of experience, the shopkeeper was staring at me( or looking at me anyway) and that would have worried me before, there was still emotion but there was also a feeling of flow, of event following event, enter shop ask for item pay money receive change leave shop, all experienced as is, with no colour added.<br />Yes with no colour added, basically not through the perception of self. <br />Quote:<br />I still dont think Im done yet though. Will keep looking.neeeel<br />Do, remember man , you only have to look at it once, its not a practice or a build up, its just looking at something obvious and true.But seriously man, I need real honesty from you here, whether its confidence you are free, or honesty in that you still know you are caught in the belief. Talk about this layer of cotton wool being removed. What happened? Was there a particular time when it happened?Also remember, its not a big song and dance, look at it and its obviousness may even be somewhat funny. Dont expect to go into some magical hippy trance state where you are at one with the universe. No man ,its just seeing something thats always been plain and obvious. That the life lives by itself with no you whatsoever. Look at that.Give it focus. Real focus.Adrian<br />I am being honest, that why I am saying I dont think Im done, theres still reluctance to say quot;
there is no Iquot;
, that its still to a certain extent a concept rather than a truth. Why is there reluctance? I dont know. Because I am still clinging to beliefs that were important? There is no I , but the brain is clinging to the old thought patterns.<br />Well really look , truly look at the fact that there is no you. Just that.I quot;
knowquot;
there is no quot;
Iquot;
( even now I wanted to type ,there is likely no I :S) , i know this from the evidence I have seen, but it hasnt become a basic truth if that makes sense. I still have to quot;
rememberquot;
that there is no I. <br />Theres nothing to remember, its just looking at whats already there.I understand it must be frustrating to you to be unable to get across something that is so clear to you. That is why Im being honest with you, Im not bull****ting you about being enlightened or any of that ****<br />You are being hoenst, but people do need a constant push and reminder cause its very easy get lost in the world of BS again, when trying to do this.I dont really know when it felt like the cotton wool had been taken away. Something I read on RT made the most sense , that instead of everything being inside the head, it was now outside. Its also not a constant feeling, it comes and goes, I really have to focus. <br />You see , you're focusing, because it seems you are trying to pull back to that feeling of no I, even if it was only brief moments (if any), just drop all that and look. Theres nothing to get TO, or anything , its just seeing something thats already there.SInce the subtle shift happened that you mention, have you slipped back to the old ways of thinking at any time, for brief moments? Or is it absolutely broken at that moment, and theres no way it can come back, even for brief moments? From reading your RT thread, it seems like its absolutely broken, you say that its ridiculous to even consider the thought of there being an quot;
Iquot;
now.neeeel<br />When you crack it you'll know youll have cracked it, it may be a bit messy straight away, but you will know the difference. But no point 'waiting' for this difference. It can only happen by simply look at the obvious!!<br />Hey man , if you could a few of these questions as truthfully as possible, usually its better in a chat but Ill write them here and you must absolutely confident in your answers, even if there is uncertainty in the answer , there must be confidence in the uncertainty if you get me, in other words dont write stuff that sounds correct!!Give each one timewhat influences thoughts?<br />I am not sure that your question is clear. Nothing influences thoughts, ie nothing can change a thought mid-think so to speak, a thought just is.If you meant, how do thoughts arise, then they arise through input from the environment combined with current knowledge , eg *sees coke can on table* -> quot;
thoughts of coke, thoughts of who gave me the can, thoughts of what I was doing when that person was herequot;
, or elsea thought can generate another thought, egthought 1 quot;
what will I have for lunchquot;
->thought 2 quot;
omlettequot;
->thought 3 quot;
no, pastaquot;
thought 1 could have been generated by a feeling of hunger. <br />what influences beliefs?<br />information influences beliefs. Information from the environment( which includes other people). So new knowledge might show that a previously held belief is false. also I think feelings influence beliefs. eg we see a dog, dog comes running up to us barking, we feel fear, we form a belief quot;
dogs are dangerousquot;
. what influences the brain?<br />Again, information from our senses, influences the brain. thoughts and beliefs are inputs as well, and so can influence the processing that the brain does<br />Who does the self concept and brain and body belong to?<br />The self concept is just that, a concept, a belief, a feeling, if it belongs to anything it belongs to the brain, since it is resident in the brain. The brain and body dont belong to anyone, they are, they are the entirety of the organism, they are the system in which thought and life reside.<br />What is reading these questions?<br />The organism, the brain, is processing the information that is received through the eyes, and using its current state of knowledge to produce answers.<br />Who is in the memories of the events of the lifes past?<br />memories are just representations of experiences, with added colour from beliefs, feelings and thoughts.Cheers<br />As you say, there is probably a desire to give quot;
right answersquot;
but the answers I have given are what seems to be true. Of course I could be just fooling myself and seeing what I want to see ( or rather, the brain believing what it wants to believe) but theres no way of knowing if that is what is happening so all I can do is trust that this is the reality Im seeing, rather than some game played by the brain.neeeel<br />**** man you really sound like you've punched through it, and see it as a belief. But I dont know, maybe go on a rant and tell me about the self, tell me as much as possible. Also, whos monitoring thoughts? Answer that one.<br />(next post)<br />Regarding my last reply there, I realized you already put alot of time into another post talking about the self, so its unfair of me to keep saying that , i just wanted to scope it out, see was there a difference between now and then. I just wanted to see did it click, i am still learning myself, and one of things im learning is that some people cant pinpoint exactly when it happens. I could , but it still took me hours to really trust that id seen it. Actually seen it.Remember man, stuff like habitual thoughts will remain , but as you see them clearly for what they are with no self perception/feedback loop getting in the way they can only fade as they are truly not real, only thoughts.But despite my first paragraph if you could just maybe elaborate on when your at just so we can keep engaging, you will see this, its not a big song and dance, and dont expect to see it 100% the way someone else has written it. But there is a shift, a click, that's the bit I want to know. There is no bull**** in your posts, its no nonsense, this is vital to cracking it.<br />I was going to say that I would just be repeating myself by talking about the self, as I did that other thing a few days ago. I have been wondering if I have actually cracked it, and just not realised. there has been a definite shift in perception, since a few days ago actually, as you say, habitual thoughts remain, i was feeling really **** and upset last night( not about this, about something else in my life), to the point of paranoia and wondering if this was just some sort of weird cult thing lol, but this morning , and today, I am seeing clearer again. I sat in the park this afternoon, in a lovely sunny day, and things looked and felt different from how they did a week ago, its hard to explain but its like I am actually there, in the middle of everything, I am a part of the world whereas before I was just a dream. like my boundaries have moved outwards, from inside my head, to everything I perceive( maybe thats a bit strong, I am not one with the universe yet lol, but I feel that its a decent description). I dont know if it was just because it was a really sunny day, but evrything seemed brighter (duh), smells seemed stronger. I dunno, everything seems quot;
cleanerquot;
. I think my reservations i expressed in my other posts were coming from the fact that this could just be a belief to replace the previous belief. Also the fact that, as you say, habitual thought patterns and behaviour patterns remain, some patterns are really quite ****ed up , so there is more I could do now that I have seen what really is. So there was a feeling of quot;
not finishedquot;
which was probably why I felt that.Got to go now anyway, if you have any other questions that will help you be sure about this, ask awaythanksneeeel<br />sounds good, do you exist? Answer that in any way that quot;
feels rightquot;
if you get me, i.e. naturally.<br />Another question. IS this a belief to replace another belief? What do you think? Whats the difference between this and the belief of self?<br />another question (ill keep sending them as I think) <br />Whos living life? Answer as honestly as possible, pure clear, you dont need to go mad into elaboration.<br />Originally Posted by adecleirdo you exist? Answer that in any way that quot;
feels rightquot;
if you get me, i.e. naturally.<br />There is a physical body that exists in reality, obviously. If quot;
Iquot;
can be said to be anything, it would be that body and brain, identified by the name neeeel. Is there a separate entity inside that body that is the quot;
Iquot;
? No. <br />Quote:<br />Originally Posted by adecleirIS this a belief to replace another belief? What do you think? Whats the difference between this and the belief of self?<br />This is a difficult one. Is everything a belief? Are there basic truths that are so basic and true that we dont need to hold a belief about them, they just are? Eg quot;
I am malequot;
, quot;
the sun will rise tomorrowquot;
,quot;
If I drop something, it falls to the groundquot;
. All 3 of these could be proved false( eg if I was medically a hermaphrodite, if the sun explodes, and if we happen to be in space).but at the moment they hold true because of the evidence to support them. What evidence is there of an quot;
Iquot;
? the only evidence seems to be the belief itself. ie, the evidence of self is that there appears to be a sense of self. Because there was a belief in self, thoughts, decisions etc were ascribed to that self. When we actually looked at the evidence , there was none to support it. The fact that thoughts appear spontaneously, or are triggered by stimuli in the environment implies there is no quot;
Iquot;
that is thinking,etc.Its possible that there is a specific region of the brain that is involved in processing and generating thoughts, does that mean there is an quot;
Iquot;
and thats where it is? No, because the brain is a complex organism , all parts work as a unit to provide function.So the difference between this and the belief of self is that this is based on observable fact.<br />Quote:<br />Originally Posted by adecleirWhos living life? Answer as honestly as possible, pure clear, you dont need to go mad into elaboration.<br />Noone is living life, life is. there is body and brain, that is the life. There is an organism that has life.neeeel<br />cool man your saying all the right things, but often that can be the problem, is he out? or has he just learned it.Im really trying take a look here to see whats the difference between now and before.<br />Quote:<br />There is a physical body that exists in reality, obviously. If quot;
Iquot;
can be said to be anything, it would be that body and brain, identified by the name neeeel. Is there a separate entity inside that body that is the quot;
Iquot;
? No.<br />So what has this got to do with you ?(I mean the body, its not a trick question or anything like that), I mean whats this got to do with your life? Im trying to get it from your natural point of view, whats changed, describe the quot;
Iquot;
that quot;
wasquot;
and the I now as much as possible in your own words.<br />Quote:<br />This is a difficult one. Is everything a belief? Are there basic truths that are so basic and true that we dont need to hold a belief about them, they just are? Eg quot;
I am malequot;
, quot;
the sun will rise tomorrowquot;
,quot;
If I drop something, it falls to the groundquot;
. All 3 of these could be proved false( eg if I was medically a hermaphrodite, if the sun explodes, and if we happen to be in space).but at the moment they hold true because of the evidence to support them. What evidence is there of an quot;
Iquot;
? the only evidence seems to be the belief itself. ie, the evidence of self is that there appears to be a sense of self. Because there was a belief in self, thoughts, decisions etc were ascribed to that self. When we actually looked at the evidence , there was none to support it. The fact that thoughts appear spontaneously, or are triggered by stimuli in the environment implies there is no quot;
Iquot;
that is thinking,etc.Its possible that there is a specific region of the brain that is involved in processing and generating thoughts, does that mean there is an quot;
Iquot;
and thats where it is? No, because the brain is a complex organism , all parts work as a unit to provide function.So the difference between this and the belief of self is that this is based on observable fact.<br />Spot on man, I 100% agree.<br />Quote:<br />Noone is living life, life is. there is body and brain, that is the life. There is an organism that has life.neeeel<br />Cool, I think your done but Im really trying to get as much from your personal point of view as possible. Who is it thats really experiencing life? Talk about that a little more i you dont mind.I know im probably pressing and repeating myself a bit too, but m just trying to press to get your own point of view. Just to see whats changed, often people will know the theory but whether that does anything or not is the part thats tricky to spot.<br />Actually another question as well that is actually relevant to this conversation. What if were wrong on RT?Whats the forum actually doing? Is it just a load of nonsense?What if we ARE a cult ? What if all this is nonsense? This whole conversation? Whats your thoughts on that?<br />[20:42:42] neeeel: hi, this is neeeel from 2+2<br />[20:44:38] Wylo: Hi man, I actually never use skype, is this the chat (as in type here and send message?) or this an actual chat section somewhere.<br />[20:44:51] neeeel: ye this is the chat<br />[20:44:56] Wylo: cool!<br />[20:45:19] neeeel: if u dont want to use it thats fine, was just thinking instead of sending pms on 2+2 , but thats fine if u want to use that<br />[20:45:40] Wylo: no your right, this is fine!<br />[20:46:01] Wylo: im just digging up those questions, 2 secs<br />[20:46:13] neeeel: ye i have them on screen now<br />[20:46:18] neeeel: quot;
So what has this got to do with you ?(I mean the body, its not a trick question or anything like that), I mean whats this got to do with your life? Im trying to get it from your natural point of view, whats changed, describe the quot;
Iquot;
that quot;
wasquot;
and the I now as much as possible in your own words.quot;
<br />[20:46:30] neeeel: I wasnt sure what you meant by this<br />[20:46:58] Wylo: well basically in your own words , whats changed? what is the I ?<br />[20:47:50] neeeel: nothing has changed in that nothing has been removed, nothing has been ignored, just that something has been seen for what it was<br />[20:48:10] Wylo: so what happened?<br />[20:48:16] neeeel: i still have the same behviour patterns<br />[20:48:28] neeeel: what happened when?<br />[20:49:08] Wylo: whats the difference between now and then? in your own life regarding the feeling of I?<br />[20:49:39] Wylo: remember your first post on 2+2? that sense you talked of? What about now?<br />[20:50:30] neeeel: its a different perception of what life is. Before there was a definite sense of the controller, the chooser, now I ahve seen that this is not true<br />[20:51:40] Wylo: whats the perception?<br />[20:51:47] Wylo: describe that<br />[20:51:53] neeeel: I dont inhabit my body, I am my body, or my body is me, not me in the sense of self, but me in the sense of the thing that is living<br />[20:52:26] Wylo: and when we say quot;
lookquot;
, what does that actually mean?<br />[20:52:38] Wylo: well what do you tihnk it means anyway?<br />[20:53:08] neeeel: the perception is , or was, that I could control thoughts, I could change thoughts, I was given life and was the operator of that life<br />[20:53:13] neeeel: that I was chosing what to think, when to think it<br />[20:54:28] Wylo: cool and what about the second question(dunno if your typing it already)<br />[20:54:34] Wylo: the look one<br />[20:54:45] neeeel: when we say look, it doesnt mean, look into your thoughts and see what all this means, or look spiritually, or whatever. It means look at the evidence of your senses.<br />[20:55:02] neeeel: like, look how thoughts arise, is tehre a controller, an instigator?<br />[20:55:42] Wylo: cool and what about honesty? what are we talking about when we talk about that shit what do you think xxxxx is doing on that thread?<br />[20:56:52] neeeel: i dunno , I havent followed it closely, but I dont understand how people can not at least see the point you are getting at, even if they dont agree/dont want to follow it up<br />[20:57:09] neeeel: my first post in that thread was to express how simple the idea was<br />[20:57:24] neeeel: hang on will go read xxxxxs response again<br />[20:57:52] Wylo: ah well theres probably no need, maybe just that last one, he only wrote two lines<br />[20:58:05] Wylo: im only curious really to see your point of view<br />[20:59:23] neeeel: but all the stuff that those guys xxxxx and xxxxxx were spewing before, I dont see how anyone can think that was interesting, it was all speculation, made up stories<br />[21:00:04] neeeel: I started off reading xxxxxxx posts with some interest, he seemed to be quot;
getting itquot;
( before I realised there was nothing to get) but later on he just reverted to talking shit about stuff<br />[21:00:29] neeeel: Whether they are actively avoiding the question, or just dont get it, i dont know<br />[21:01:19] Wylo: yea they are basically coming up with excuses...<br />[21:01:29] Wylo: Actually another question as well that is actually relevant to this conversation. What if were wrong on RT?<br />Whats the forum actually doing? Is it just a load of nonsense?<br />What if we ARE a cult ? <br />What if all this is nonsense? This whole conversation? <br />Whats your thoughts on that?<br />[21:01:38] neeeel: ye thats a difficult one<br />[21:02:38] Wylo: well im not gonna defend it , id rather hear what you think<br />[21:03:06] neeeel: I am not sure what the forum is actually doing. It seems like they are on a mission to show everyone about this<br />[21:03:28] neeeel: but i would be surprised if there wasnt some ego mixed up in it too, i guess thats only to be expected<br />[21:03:39] neeeel: people arent going to break free that easily<br />[21:04:30] neeeel: what if you are wrong? I dont see how thats possible, science would have to come up with some proof that there was an actual controller<br />[21:05:42] Wylo: cool and all the other questions? you're not here to impress me :)<br />[21:06:00] neeeel: because the proof of our senses is that there isnt, that thoughts and feelings arise from stimuli in the environment or from other thoughts<br />[21:07:08] neeeel: What if you are a cult? lol i really dont know<br />[21:07:59] neeeel: I feel like Im still giving quot;
correctquot;
answers lol, even though they are what I think. How can I make it personal to me<br />[21:11:08] Wylo: I guess what makes it personal is you will notice in all the liberations , not one of them is the same, yes there is the same solid key points, quot;
the I just a conceptquot;
etc, but each person goes on a rant, they're told go on a rant, I guess you could bring up your own day to day experiences etc. Some people think they've cracked it because they say some 'correct' things but it doesnt take long for it to be obvious that they're just spewing shit, anyway i probably shouldnt spoonfeed you that bit.<br />[21:11:30] Wylo: [21:01] Wylo: <br /><<< What if all this is nonsense? This whole conversation? <br />[21:11:32] neeeel: so am i spewing shit?<br />[21:13:40] Wylo: dont think so tbh, but generally people wont really confirm your out till a few people have read what you say. I think your out man. But what about that last conversation, from arriving to the forum , to seeing the shit we are talking , and then our pms? Is it all nonsense? Just in your own opinion<br />[21:14:52] neeeel: how can it be nonsense? is it really that easy to dupe people? I guess it could be that your attracting all the no hopers, fucked up downers, and psychotics to the site with the promise of freedom and then forcing some sort of bullshit dogma on them, but it doesnt seem like that. I can usually smell bullshit a mile off , even when my brother was going mental ( literally) and spewing all sorts of shit about religion which was confusing me to fuck, I knew it was bs<br />[21:15:01] neeeel: this isnt confusing at all<br />[21:17:28] Wylo: so what is liberation to you? Is the word liberation a fair word? Do you see why its worth showing people? Or do you think people should be left as they are?<br />[21:17:57] Wylo: I was gonna remind you to speak your mind, but in fairness you are.<br />[21:24:39] neeeel: im not sure if liberation is a good word, its better than enlightened , which has connotations with religion, mystisicm and stuff. I dont think I am liberated yet, because I still have all the behaviour and thought patterns that made me feel so shit, but I have something that helps me see through the shit<br />[21:26:38] neeeel: there is no I, that is a fact, so a lot of the stuff just doesnt matter any more<br />[21:27:29] Wylo: and what about this bit? Do you see why its worth showing people? Or do you think people should be left as they are?<br />[21:32:34] neeeel: I have seen the worth of you showing it to me, so it must be worth showing it to other people.<br />[21:36:43] Wylo: cool, I might send this shit to people? Firstly so they can confirm your done, and secondly , every liberation that can be read really helps other people that dont see this. Because each one comes from a different angle completely, ill just change your real name to the username and take out usernames mentioned or whatever, is that cool?<br />[21:38:22] neeeel: ye no problem<br />[21:38:54] Wylo: reason you need to be confirmed is, if you are not , and you leave thinking that whatever you figured out is actually liberation, it could fuck it up in terms of people getting the wrong idea, just wanna keep it clean and on record and shit.<br />[21:39:54] neeeel: ye i understand<br />[21:41:02] Wylo: And yea your right man, people on RT DO want to show this to the world. Is that cheesy? Maybe , I dont think so, it would be a fairly fucking significant step in humanity if everyone saw this, im not going make claims of it creating world peace or any of that shit, but think of all the egos that fuck up everyone around them including themselves. This shit is a means to looking at all that for what it is!<br />[21:42:05] Wylo: anyway next step is to send us on 10 euro , and we have work for you in a farm where you must attend at least 5 times a year, is that cool? lol<br />[21:43:57] neeeel: yes, to me as i said before, the disparity between reality and the image of self is what causes the most pain. There is no I, so there is no failure, there just is the body and brain reacting as best as it can to the stimuli, so how can failure, or losing have an effect any more( it still does for me, but I can see through it)<br />[21:44:55] neeeel: lol ok i will sign up for 5 years lol<br />[21:45:24] neeeel: how can there be failiure or success, right or wrong, there just IS<br />[21:45:57] Wylo: exactly man, shit happens, such an underrated phrase.<br />[21:46:38] Wylo: thats all it is, ...shit, its not your problems, its just problems<br />[21:56:50] neeeel: Anyway let me know what happens, I signed up for RT but they are on lockdown for a week<br />[21:58:21] wylo: cool yea, will do, i think your out, its the random shit you say between the questions thats more important.<br />[21:58:39] wylo: gotta go anyway , talk soon!<br />[21:58:47] neeeel: ok thanks a lot for talking to me<br />[21:59:02] wylo: np man, yea your right chat is easier!<br />[21:59:19] neeeel: :) see you later<br />[21:59:26] wylo: see you!<br />