The Tunku Tapes

The Tunku Tapes: Post-Merdeka blues - Part 1
Last modified:Wednesday December 26, 4:52 pm
10:41am, Wed: special
The negotiations for Independence (Merdeka) started in 1955 and Malaya
became an independent country on Aug 31, 1957 with Tunku Abdul Rahman as
prime minister. Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah joined the Malaysian merger in
1963. However, Singapore left the federation two years later.
Meanwhile, within the Malayan Chinese Association (MCA), there was factional
strife. A faction emerged in 1957 around Dr Lim Chong Eu. In 1958, Lim was
voted MCA president over Tan Cheng Lock. As the 1959 federal elections drew
close, Lim pressed for more seats against the 29 allocated by the Alliance
National Council. The Tunku replied by announcing that Umno would contest
the election without MCA. In the process, Lim resigned as MCA leader and
only MCA members acceptable to the Tunku appeared on the Alliance ticket for
the 1959 elections.
K Das: As Merdeka got closer and closer, how did Singapore slip out of this
arrangement?
Tunku: We got to work very closely with Singapore when we were forming
Malaysia. After my press statement, Singapore requested to join us too. So
(Lee) Kuan Yew represented Singapore, Halim Fuad, Tuan Stephens, and Tun
Mustapha - they all came to work for Malaysia. They were holding meetings
and later on it was obvious that Malaysia had to be formed. The British
terms were that Singapore could not be on its own but was free to join
Malaysia. So Kuan Yew accepted all the terms and it was only after he joined
Malaysia that he started to interfere.
K Das: I was going back a bit earlier to 1955/1956 when Malaya was achieving
Merdeka. At what point did they become separate, because before the war, we
were all under the British and Malaya included Singapore? How was it done -
how did Singapore separate? At what year would that be? When the Merdeka
talks began, why was Singapore not included?
Tunku: Before Kuan Yew, there was no approach for independence. They were
very keen to join but I did not see that in David Marshall and Lim Yew Hock,
they had a powerful enough leader to control Singapore.
K Das: There were approaches? Wasn't the PAP (Peoples' Action Party) itself
controlled by the communists for a while?
Tunku: That is why the British were not keen to give them independence on
their own. So they had to join us or carry on being a colony of Britain.
That is why Kuan Yew decided to join us. After that he did everything
possible to break away. That is where he has remained today, he is not a man

to be trusted.
K Das: But T H Tan was always very suspicious?
Tunku: .and (Tan) Siew Sin.
K Das: How about (Tan) Cheng Lock?
Tunku: He was an old man.
K Das: How did he feel about Singapore?
Tunku: He did not express his feelings very well. He was too old then -
suffering from senility.
K Das: Leong Yew Koh was also getting old?
Tunku: He was pure Kuomintang so he actually wanted to join us. He was very
anti-communist.
K Das: Why did H S Lee leave the Alliance? He left with (Lim) Chong Eu?
Tunku: He left with Chong Eu, so I kicked them all out.
K Das: In your book you mentioned that Chong Eu wanted to leave - he asked
for 40 seats. Is that correct?
Tunku: Not 40, it was 32.
K Das: 32?
Tunku: We gave him 29.
K Das: He asked for 32 ... there is a bit of argument over this. Some say he
asked for 40.
Tunku: There were only 104 seats. If I had given him anymore, I would have
got into trouble.
K Das: They were all Malay seats?
Tunku: So when he decided to break away, I said good luck, get out.
K Das: But later on he came back and said he had made a mistake - what was
the trouble? Was he having trouble with his young supporters?
Tunku: He was not having trouble. He wanted to have a strong say in the
government. I said, "No, you can only have that number of seats, no more."
He should have been satisfied with all that. I said, "We can work together

for the good of Malaya so long as we can get the country running well." That
was all that mattered to us. I was running it very well.
Tunku as PM
K Das: In those days, how did you have the time for films, sport..
Tunku: I used to go and train the footballers myself, I rode and did
everything. I could never be quiet you know, I didn't know how to do that.
Whatever time I had, I rode. You see, with my colleagues, we were working
together - I never interfered in their work, they did their own work and
then we would discuss all this during every Wednesday cabinet meeting. After
that, we would adjourn to lunch. There were some ministers like Aziz Ishak
who were out of control. He was minister of agriculture but what he did he
never told us, he did on his own.
K Das: What did he do?
Tunku: He was minister of agriculture.
K Das: And what were the things he did?
Tunku: Everything! He was also head of the Co-operative Society. He would
use Co-operative money to buy land when the co-operative society was too
small and couldn't pay. For instance, the piece of land he bought from Brown
Estate for more than a million dollars - in those days it was a lot of
money. But he did not get the money to pay and so I had to take it over,
paid for it and made a Malay settlement there. That area is called Bayan
Baru.
We had to pay for it and so I sold half the land to the Penang state
government. Chong Eu bought that and built all those housing estates for his
development plan. I had to sell half and then pay the other half. The
government of Malaysia paid and settled all these people in Bayan Baru. That
is the sort of things he did. Then he went and built a urea plant when he
had no money to pay for it and we had to take it over - he started
everything well but he never followed up on them.
K Das: Can you recall the circumstances under which Col (H S) Lee left the
cabinet?
Tunku: Yes I can recall it very well. The MCA had by that time come under
the leadership of Dr Lim Chong Eu and there were all the young Chinese blood
who had taken over from Tun Tan Cheng Loke. It was then that H S Lee joined
that gang. So these people, the young Chinese, all ambitious, power-mad,
power-crazy posed a certain threat to the well-being of the Alliance.
They came after I had taken the decision to give them 29 seats but they said

they wanted 32. So I told them I have given you more than enough - 29 seats
and half that number is from the Malay constituencies. I cannot do any more
than that. The Malays have been very patient with you people but now you are
still making demands. You get out. It was during this time that H S Lee got
involved with that gang. I do not know what they promised him. So I rang him
up and told him to get out.
K Das: So he joined Chong Eu's party?
Tunku: He was not in the MCA.
K Das: So he joined the other side?
Tunku: There was no other side. There was only one MCA. Therefore he was in
that.
K Das: So he joined the young faction?
Tunku: They took over the MCA.
K Das: At this time Col H S Lee was the finance minister?
Tunku: He was a senator. Yes, he was minister of finance.
K Das: Then he left?
Tunku: He left. I kicked him out.
K Das: And you appointed Siew Sin (Tan Siew Sin)?
Tunku: That is right. When I kicked him out, this new lot also got out. I
then gave up my job and appointed Razak as PM and I went around the country
campaigning. In the meantime MCA had a meeting at the Chinese Assembly Hall
and appointed their new officers with Siew Sin as its head.
Happiest PM in 1959
K Das: When you went on the campaign in '59?
Tunku: You know I went completely - I retired. I did not go on leave. I
resigned. I did not get any pay and I did not have any money. That is why I
was selling some of my houses again. When the new MCA was formed, I came
back to take over as PM again. Then the election followed - MCA lost their
seats. Only Chong Eu won his seat in Penang. All the others lost.
K Das: In your campaign for Umno, what was your main campaign line?
Tunku: To support Umno, take action against MCA. Only if the MCA found new
leaders would we support them.

K Das: And before you resigned, you also had some problems with the Malay
schoolteachers?
Tunku: Oh, yes!
K Das: What was that about?
Tunku: They wanted better pay, they wanted to be treated on the same scale
as the English teachers.
K Das: The same as the graduates?
Tunku: Yes. I said, "You can't, because you are not qualified like the
English teachers...Your schooling is only up to a certain point in Malay
vernacular schools. If you had gone on to higher levels like Senior
Cambridge or what not, I can give you the same pay. But we have already
increased your pay from what it was under the British."
So they decided to boycott Umno, they left en masse.
K Das: Was that one of the reasons why you went to campaign?
Tunku: No.
K Das: The main reason was the MCA?
Tunku: Only the MCA. I did not worry about them. They said, "If you
campaign, we will also campaign against you people."
So I said, "Carry on, do what you want. It is for the people to decide."
I mean, the country was well served at the time. The economy was good,
everything was good, so what was there to be afraid of? The people could not
say that business had gone down, that our money had shrunk.The people could
not say that because we were having a very good time. So I was not afraid of
anybody. If the people were not happy and they wanted to support those
parties, those who had shown no particular talent in politics except to talk
up to you, let them.
K Das: If I remember correctly, 1959 was the year in which you said you were
the happiest PM. Can you recall why you were so happy that particular year?
Tunku: In fact I was saying so even before that. You see, we were doing so
well.
K Das: Because that happened to be the year you resigned. It was also when
you said you were the happiest PM.

Tunku: That was the time we broke away from the MCA and so on. I don't know,
things were going so well, so many things happened that year.
K Das: But that was a very good year for elections. You won 74 out of 104
seats.

The Tunku Tapes: Why Brunei backed out - Part 2
Last modified: Wednesday December 26, 4:52 pm
10:13am, Thu: After the 1959 general elections, Tunku Abdul Rahman visited
Australia where he spoke out strongly against apartheid.
In 1961, Tunku announced the idea of a Malaysian merger which would include
Malaya, Singapore, North Borneo, Brunei and Sarawak. The Sultan of Brunei
backed out of the Malaysian Federation in the end because of disenchantment
with certain financial and constitutional aspects of the Malaysian proposal.
K Das: Tunku, I met you in 1959 after the elections. You went to Australia
and I was there. I was a student, you gave a small dinner party to the
students in Melbourne and that was the first time we had satay in Melbourne.
Tunku: Was that over here in 1959?
K Das: No, it was in Melbourne and you were passing through from Adelaide.
You stopped in Melbourne for a few days. What I want to know is what was the
occasion in 1959, after the trouble with the MCA, after the trouble with
Umno schoolteachers, elections came and then you were in Australia. It was
quite a long visit. Do you remember?
Tunku: That was nothing special. The Australians were very friendly.
K Das: Was that an official trip or was it a holiday?
Tunku: I think it was more of a holiday. Menzies was very friendly, he gave
me full support. The only trouble I had with him was...
K Das: Apartheid.
Tunku: Oh! You realise that, he was a very strong supporter. After the first
or second year, we expelled South Africa. Then he groaned, "My God, my God."
K Das: He did?
Tunku: Yes.
K Das: At the conference?
Tunku: Yes.
K Das: But actually that man is very strange you know. As a prime minister
he was very powerful.
Tunku: Very English.

K Das: .but not very popular. His power was through the party and he was
very clever at manipulating the party. But he was a very good PM in many
ways.
Tunku: One thing, he was very friendly to us.
K Das: He was good at economics but he was not very popular. They admired
him though.
Tunku: The Australians are not classy people although he was very classy. He
was certainly one of those who closely supported me - Nehru, Ayub Khan, they
all supported me very strongly.
K Das: On what issues?
Tunku: On everything. When I went to negotiate independence with the
British, I used to stop sometimes in India, other times in Ceylon ... they
were all very friendly. But I was very surprised that when the massacre took
place in Sharpeville they did not bring it up. Only I brought it up and I
made it known to the British government before I left. I said I had to take
it up but they tried to advise me not to.
K Das: Before you went to London you told them already?
Tunku: They were right about that. As soon as Sharpeville took place, I said
we'd got to do something about this.
K Das: And you spoke about it in Parliament?
Tunku: Yes, in our Parliament after my return.
K Das: I think you did it before. Because you told me at the conference you
came to the direct mandate...
Tunku: When we met again, Verwood, the PM came. He did not say very much.
Normally at the Conference of Commonwealth countries, as PM, you are invited
to Chequers, but I did not go and the PM was very disappointed because I got
on very well with him.
K Das: Who was it then? MacMillan or Wilson?
Tunku: I think it was MacMillan. Then Verwood, the PM of South Africa, came
to see me in my hotel. He came to try to explain about what they had done
for the blacks and what not. Then he invited me to go to South Africa. I
said, "What you have done to the people because of their colour is something
that worries me, that you could shoot more than 70 of them down in cold
blood."
Later on, they kicked him out.

Sultan of Brunei opts out
K Das: Who was the British official at the time?
Tunku: The foreign minister himself, Duncan Sands.
K Das: What did he say?
Tunku: He said, "You take over."
K Das: Regardless?
Tunku: Regardless. Transferred power over to me. They trusted me to look
after the place. He told me there was no use in negotiating with the Sultan
of Brunei, that he was so stupid. I said, "Every little thing has life. I
don't want to interfere. I don't want to take them over against their
wishes."
In fact, at first they were very keen to join Malaysia. I think he must have
been influenced by the Shell people so they met and they used their
influence on him. That is why I could not prove why he changed suddenly from
wanting to join Malaysia and then deciding against joining Malaysia simply
because of the need to contribute revenue towards defence.
K Das: Tunku, in your negotiation, after you spoke to Duncan Sands, did you
speak to the Sultan afterwards?
Tunku: I did not see him afterwards, he was at his house when we had this
meeting. I remember there was (Tan) Siew Sin and I, and then there was his
lawyer Lawson.
K Das: Where did the conversation take place?
Tunku: At the Brunei Palace, Istana Brunei. We decided then that there would
be a parting of ways. They had also suggested they should be the first Agong
but we had agreed to appoint the Agong through the order of succession.
K Das: What was his reason for saying he must be the first Agong?
Tunku: He did not give any reason. That is why I said he couldn't, we had to
follow the rules set up according to the order of succession. If the Sultan
of Brunei had joined us he would have had to ascend the throne only after
the Sultan of Perak's turn.
What were his objections? To paying for defence . but it was the same for
Singapore who had to pay so much for defence and so much for other revenue.
Where else could we get this revenue?

K Das: This is one of my problems. I want to travel to London and Brunei and
other places because other people still have records and documents...
Tunku: We've got records here but they won't give us.
K Das: They don't give it here. Also, I want to personally see the people
involved at the time to talk to them and see...
Tunku: Well there is nobody else. Siew Sin has died and then there was Lord
Cobbold but at the meeting with the Sultan of Brunei, he was not there. I
cannot remember which British officials were there now.
K Das: It was the time of Duncan Sands?
Tunku: But he was not there at the last meeting. That is why when I saw him
in London, he said, "Take it."
K Das: Were there any officials from Siew Sin's office?
Tunku: Siew Sin himself was not there. I was alone. There were no officials.
It was not one big meeting but it should have been a big meeting to decide.
He was playing an evasive game at that time. He wanted to join . he didn't
want to join... That is why I felt the Shell people were influencing him.

The Tunku Tapes: Jailing Harun - Part 3
Last modified: Friday December 28, 4:33 pm
11:00am, Fri: special
After the ethnic violence following the worst defeat for the Alliance at the
1969 general elections, Tunku Abdul Rahman retired from office and the prime
ministership passed to Tun Abdul Razak in 1970.
It was the passing of an era which saw the control of the ruling party Umno
shift from the old-style English-educated Malay aristocracy to the emergent
and ambitious new Malay capitalist class.
Razak is credited with initiating much of the racial restructuring of the
Malaysian economy under the New Economic Policy. He died in 1976 and his
successor was Hussein Onn, son of Umno's founder Onn Jaafar. The new prime
minister's first test was to confront Harun Idris, the powerful chief
minister of Selangor, who represented an increasingly militant communal wing
in Umno.
Harun's activities became so blatant that in 1975, the prime minister
decided to press charges of corruption against him. He was sentenced to six
years' imprisonment on charges of corruption and forgery in 1978 but still
managed to win a seat in the Umno supreme council that same year. He was
released from prison in 1981.
Tunku: Yes, 1959 was good, 1964 was also good but 1969 was the worst year
because the communists started trouble and my own people, like (Abdul)
Razak, started trouble - trouble started by Harun, Mahathir (Mohamad),
Ghazali (Shafie). They wanted to take over power. Things were going so well,
they kept on calling me forgetful and what not. So I said, "All right, go on
and take over. As for myself, I work for the country and for the people. If
you can do better, take it." So that is why I left ...
I was then appointed secretary general of the Organisation of Islamic
Countries. The headquarters were at my office in Kuala Lumpur. So I just had
to carry on with my new job. I was not feeling upset, I did not feel bad. I
told them, "If you want to do the job, do so by all means." The King of
Saudi picked me to organise the OIC, so I did. I always feel happy when I
have to organise something, so I was happy to go and organise the OIC.
K Das: Tunku, since the terrible May 69 days, this country has progressed
rapidly economically and more and more Malays have gone into business and
are doing very well, but there are people who say that perhaps they are
going too fast. How do you feel about this?
Tunku: I think they might be right in the sense that it is going a bit too
fast for people who have had no previous experience in business and

economics and as a result, there is a certain section, and a very small
section at that, who can take advantage of all these projects that are aimed
at benefitting the Malays. The rest are still behind and cannot take
advantage of it. In a sense, we can say that it is all going too fast.
Whatever happens, I feel that in the whole economic progress, you've got to
take the whole country with you, you've got to pay more attention to those
who have less and those who are a little inexperienced in this type of work.
You have got to try and help them along. But you cannot, so to speak,
benefit one section of the people at the expense of another. That is the
thing we must not do.
I think on the whole, the Chinese and others are quite happy to help the
Malays along and so we must not hurt their feelings or show discrimination
in any sense in this matter, but try and bring them all along together and
get them to try and help Malaysia. It is difficult I know, but that is the
sort of policy I tried to carry out in those years of my term as prime
minister.
K Das: You have always expressed nothing but your admiration and feeling of
friendship toward Tun Razak. I think that this feeling is general in this
country but there is also a feeling that perhaps Tun Razak was very much in
command but his policies are not being implemented as he would have liked
them. Would you like to talk about this subject?
Tunku: I can try to say my bit on this matter because I don't think he was
quite as lucky as I was. When I had him as my No 2, he was a very
conscientious worker and I had all my colleagues in the cabinet whom I had
entrusted to do the job. To the best of my knowledge, they did their job
very well. They were, you might call pioneers and they were devoted and
dedicated to their jobs.
Tun Razak might not have been as lucky as I was because he did not have
another Tun Razak to help him in the way that I had. All these ministers are
new except for one or two who were with him in the early days but on the
whole, they are new. And then perhaps Tun Razak's way of doing things was
different from mine because he was, as you said, a very hard worker - he
wanted to do everything himself. In this way, he might have discouraged his
colleagues who might have felt, "Well, if he wants to do it, let him do it,
why should we bother?"
That is different from my way of doing things which is, "If you don't do it
properly, then I will come after you." I never interfere in any of my
colleagues' work. In fact some of the things I tried to do for my personal
friends, my colleagues turned them down but I didn't say anything, I just
accepted their decision as final. After all, it is their work. I could not
interfere. That is how I feel about it.
Going after Harun

Tunku: It is clear that Harun Idris was corrupt. He was charged you know.
Before that, they were trying to settle the matter.
K Das: How were they trying to settle the matter? How did Razak propose to
settle the matter?
Tunku: You know Harun (photo, right) was one of those - Harun, Mahathir
(photo, left), Ghazali Shafie - who were all working with Razak to oust me,
to take over my place. So these are his gang but actually he wanted to help
him by sending him out of this country and be our diplomat outside. But
Harun didn't want to go...
K Das: How did Salleh get into...
Tunku: He was the solicitor general...
K Das: At that time, solicitor general?
Tunku: Not solicitor, but attorney-general. I was in the AG's Chambers in
the early days, as DPP.
K Das: At that time when Salleh Abas was solicitor general?
Tunku: Oh, who was the AG then?
K Das: Salleh Yusuf.
Tunku: Oh, yes! He was a member of the cabinet. As solicitor general, he had
to deal with the matter.
K Das: And he refused to compromise?
Tunku: The man had committed a crime. Whoever he was, what did I care? When
a crime has been committed, he must be charged. If he was not charged, I was
prepared to retire, to resign.
K Das: Harun was a very naughty fellow. Even as a boy he was very naughty,
always fighting with the neighbour's children. Then he became MB (Mentri
Besar), but why was he sacked by Mahathir?
Tunku: Adoi! Because he was dishonest.
K Das: But I thought Mahathir did not mind dishonesty?
Tunku: But there must be something. That is his brother-in-law. Because the
Sultan did not want him, he went to plead and cry until the Sultan allowed
him to be the MB for a term.

K Das: But Razali was also the man who betrayed Harun?
Tunku: Harun betrayed Abu Bakar. They are all crooked. So I sacked Abu Bakar
Baginda. He was the legal advisor in Batu Road. He sneaked on the MB and
then Ghazali sneaked on him. They are all dirty. Allah! All so dirty. Harun
worked against me when I sent him to England for legal education. He
admitted this that night when he came here for a public talk.
Later, he worked with me through the Football Association and then he turned
against me yet again, working with Razak, Mahathir and others. Very dirty,
but funny how he changed. When I came back from Saudi Arabia, there was
trouble in his camp. The police had surrounded his house and there were all
the youth inside. I had to go in and get him out. I told him, "You are now
risking the lives of all these young people, you come to my house."
I took him in my car to my house, No 5 Jalan Tunku, and told him to give
himself up. So he agreed and gave himself up to the police. Otherwise, all
those youngsters were going to fight it out.
K Das: I know. We were all standing outside his house that night when the
police surrounded his house.
Tunku: That morning I went over. I arrived in KL and Raja, that Tanjung
Karang Raja, Raja Longchik, he came to the station and asked me to help. He
took me directly to Harun's house. I climbed upstairs and took him back with
me to my house because I said we could not talk business there, there were
too many young people. They might make trouble. So I told the leaders of the
youth - Abdullah was one of them - "If you want to follow me, you can but
have a talk with Harun at my house." I told him to give up otherwise he
would have to bear the responsibility for whatever happened, so he gave up
then.
Now he's 100 per cent for me. Do you know he came all the way from KL to
attend my buka puasa function? When I came back from Jeddah, he and the
Pemuda (Youth) also came to Batu Feringghi to see me. I was staying there. I
don't know what the trouble was then. I think they must have sensed it. He
was a very strange fellow, changed, you couldn't hold him down. How he got
himself pardoned, I don't know. (chuckle) I moved the petition to get his
sentences served concurrently. I did not mention any pardon, if they had
added it on they must have done it after I had collected all the signatures.
Mahathir came to see me in my office then.
K Das: On behalf of Harun?
Tunku: No, he was Acting PM then. Hussein Onn was in England or somewhere.
So I told him and he did it.
Pardoning Harun

K Das: Why did Mahathir come to see you?
Tunku: Over this case, I asked him. I did not want to go and see him in his
office.
K Das: What did he say?
Tunku: He came and he said, "All right, I'll do it." So he did it. But
Hussein Onn would not have done it. He did not like Harun, he is so
dishonest.
K Das: I don't understand how they could give him a pardon. A pardon is very
difficult to understand. The concurrent sentence I agree.
Tunku: But the pardon was not in my appeal. I was the one who made the
appeal, nobody else.
<K Das: But his lawyer for the appeal was Marina Yusof
Tunku: I never saw the lawyer. I called Mahathir. He came and he agreed to
alter the sentence.
K Das: I went to see Harun inside the jail. I went with Marina and his son.
They are both lawyers. He said, "Whether I am guilty or not is not the
question but this consecutive sentence is wrong."
Tunku: That was wrong.
K Das: Actually when I was talking to Marina and to him, I felt that
although he was in jail and she was the lawyer, I thought he knew more about
the law than she did and he certainly knew more than his son. He can
remember very well all the cases. Mazlan, his son was not a very good
lawyer.
Tunku: His son, oh! Is he qualified?
K Das: Yes, he's qualified.
Tunku: Oh, I didn't know.
K Das: He is a lawyer. When I was with him in Pudu jail to see his father,
his father corrected him. He said, "You are quoting the wrong cases, wrong
statute, wrong articles." Mazlan is not a very clever lawyer, Harun is a
clever lawyer.
Tunku: That is why they sent him to England to qualify as a lawyer. He was a
magistrate under me.

The Tunku tapes: Troubles in The Star - Part 4
Last modified: Saturday December 29, 12:47 pm
11:55am, Sat: special After retirement, Tunku Abdul Rahman was offered a job
with the Organisation of Islamic Countries in Jeddah. He returned home in
1973 and became active in Perkim, the Muslim Welfare Organisation of
Malaysia. Soon after, he started writing his "As I See It" column in the
Penang-based The Star newspaper, which is owned by MCA. The paper quickly
gained in popularity and its scope of operations spread to Kuala Lumpur and
the rest of the country.
K Das: Tunku, I would like to talk about the time of your involvement in The
Star. Now, how was the money taken from The Star to pay for Multi Purpose
Holdings?
Tunku: Oh! We didn't know about that. It was done behind our backs. When we
saw the mounting debt of RM8.5 million, we were very surprised. So we asked
them to explain how we got into debt to this extent because to the best of
our knowledge, we didn't owe anybody any money. Then it was disclosed that
when MCA joined us and when we moved to KL, we were using the building of
Nanyang Siang Pau.
When it became so big, we decided to have our own building and I managed to
get very cheap land for that purpose from land belonging to Aziz for RM1.5
million. It was in Cheras, in front of the Lady Templer Hospital. It was
very cheap. Then after I had agreed to sell it to the staff for RM1.5
million, they decided to buy this new piece of land for which we had to
invest RM16 million dollars.
K Das: In PJ?
Tunku: Yes, for RM16 million dollars. We undertook all the responsibilities
of running and paying for Tong Pao because MCA bought Tong Pao. Then we had
to use MCA House built by Multi Purpose and we had to pay RM200,000 a month.
That was really a bit too much. The most I would pay was RM20,000 and even
that was already too high. But we had to pay RM200,000 a month.
K Das: So that was how they got money from The Star - RM200,000 a month -
for the Multi Purpose building.
Tunku: I promised to pay dividends to the shareholders who never had any
dividends since they joined The Star. It had been recorded every year and
agreed to by the members but they had never been paid a cent.
K Das: I think that during Lee San Choon's time, he did not interfere at
all. He did not interfere too much.
Tunku: But they were doing this behind our backs.

K Das: I see.
Tunku: They are very tricky.
K Das: How was Gabriel Lee?
Tunku: He was all right. He was all right but they did not disclose to me at
every meeting under the item. I can't remember how that amount of money then
became our liability. After that, we got rather worried. Three years ago,
when we asked for a report on this, they all started making general
statements on it but we got no details as to how we got into this amount of
debt. Then we found out all these things. It was terrible.
That is why he came to see me to assure me that everything would be all
right. They sold their land in Kedah to pay the debt. Later on, they said
they could only pay us about RM300,000. So I asked what was the good of this
RM300,000 when every year we had to pay interest to the bank of nearly a
million.
They were paying me money as chairman but I said, "I don't think it is an
honest way of making money because I am merely writing for The Star."
The mistake was to sell to the MCA. I did not realise they were like that
and that was the mistake I made. I could have raised the money, I was not
sure what it was going to be like. We were only selling to MCA for RM3,000?
I could have asked people to buy shares, it was an easy way out. We were
offered shares at 75 percent for it. Then Abdullah Ahmad came along to buy
the shares, to take over. Where was I going to get the money? He said he
would help, so I borrowed RM350,000 from him for my share. He paid me the
chairman's salary which went towards paying the interest.
I asked Tun Mustapha to join. He came and paid out RM1.8 million but when
the people started to see profit increase from RM3,000 to RM6,000 to
RM10,000, he said he could not pay anymore. So it went to the MCA. They
bought Tun Mustapha's share and bought my share. I kept only 30,000 - it was
350,000 before. I paid from my salary as chairman of The Star as interest
towards the loan.
Perkim
K Das: Tunku, can we talk about your involvement with Perkim and its
activities in Malaysia.We know you are the president of this association.
Could you give us an idea of how this came about?
Tunku: When I came back from my duties as secretary general of the Islamic
Organisation in the Middle East, I was asked to take over the chairmanship
of the religious welfare of Muslim converts. They don't call this missionary
work but it is in fact missionary work because we work among those people

who become converts to try and help them settle into their new life, to help
them rehabilitate themselves and so on. We have achieved quite a lot of
success and this is what they call work in connection with Muslim welfare.
When we heard that the Cambodians had sought refuge in our country from the
tyranny of the new regime, our duty naturally was to help. There was no
other organisation to do this, so we went to show them that Perkim was doing
everything possible to look after them. They number something like 15,000.
We got the help of the army to build tents for them and now they are moving
them to more permanent quarters in Sungai Besi. Our immediate concern now is
to find money to feed them, clothe them and to teach them the language so
that as soon as they are able to speak Malay, we will then find work for
them.
Most of these people are in fact quite well-to-do people in their own
country. The poorer lot did not find any reason to flee but this lot,
according to my information, had they remained behind, might have been
killed by the communists because they are anti-communist. Their families are
in the old anti-communist regime and some of their husbands are in military
service or in the armed forces and so these are the people who have run away
and sought shelter in this country. Our own government has not given any
direct help so it has become my lot to look after them.
Tunku: The state government gives very little to us, only RM10,000 a year.
K Das: Which state, Tunku?
Tunku: Every state, to their respective Perkim - it's not enough.
K Das: RM10,000 a year?
Tunku: In Penang, it's only RM3,000 and that is not enough even for one day.
K Das: Do you get anything from Fitrah?
Tunku: No, they did not give us anything. Fitrah would have been a great
help to us if they could give us a bit. But when we have conferences and we
ask the government for assistance, they'd help. They'd given us RM200,000
for a conference but the total cost was over a million. It is very difficult
work.
K Das: The Pilgrims Fund, what is it called?
Tunku: LUTH. No, they won't give either, that is only for the pilgrims.
K Das: I would like to ask you this: Who started the pilgrims' fund?
Tunku: It was during my time but I can't remember now, too long ago. I
cannot remember the details.

K Das: Do you think it was Ungku Aziz who came up with the idea first?
Tunku: I don't know. Did he say he started it?
K Das: Someone said he was responsible for the original idea to start it.
Tunku: It was my time but I can't remember.
K Das: He was very keen on cooperatives. He said that people were selling
their property and pawning their land to go to Mecca.
Tunku: Maybe, but I don't remember.
K Das: In fact, I think he thought of it as a cooperative, when you save
money in it, you can go to Mecca. Whose idea was Perkim?
Tunku: My idea. That was when I was PM. A few men like Mubin Shepherd,
Chinese Muslims like Ibrahim Mah.
K Das: Ibrahim Mah, Mubin Shepherd, who else?
Tunku: Ahmad Nordin, his brother Aziz Zain and ... what is the name of that
Indian Muslim, he was a member of the Senate? Ubaidullah.
K Das: He does not give many contributions. He is a miser.
Tunku: Miser. But he gave me that Bengal tiger for appointing him as a
senator . (chuckle) Bengal tiger! It is still in the room. So they sent a
small tiger, it is also in the room. He said, "This is too small for you."
So he got a very big one. It must have been very expensive.
K Das: Are you satisfied with your life and are you happy in your
retirement?
Tunku: God has been very kind to me. I have served my time in the Middle
East and I have served my time in this country as prime minister for 15
years and I cannot ask for anything better. I am treated well, I have the
company of my horses, I have all my children who are fit and well and so I
cannot wish for anything better. I give all my thanks to God.
Ghafar Baba overlooked
K Das: I met Ghafar (Baba) for the first time during the Confrontation
(Indonesia's belligerent policy of Konfrontasi against the Malaysian merger)
days in Malacca. I knew how he felt at that time. So when he changed his
allegiance I was surprised, very surprised because he was totally loyal to
you.

Tunku: He was. Then he knew he was the most senior vice-president. And so
when Hussein Onn passed him over and picked Mahathir, it humiliated him in
the eyes of all the others. Why was he left out? Yet he did not do anything,
he did not protest, he just carried on as if nothing had happened. That is
the mistake he made. But I was told he lost in his business ventures. He
lost a lot of money, so to prevent himself from being sued, he accepted the
post as deputy. Mahathir used him only to go around and campaign for him.
That is what he is doing everyday.
K Das: But he is a sick man too?
Tunku: Yes, he just had a heart operation. According to Hussein, he picked
Mahathir because he considered him the best man. That was according to him,
but not according to the general assembly. According to Hussein, he is a
doctor, a better, more serious man. Tengku Razaleigh (Hamzah) was the next
best person but Ghafar was more interested in business.
Ghafar comes from a very humble birth without high education. Actually, his
father was a headmaster and then later on, he became an officer in the audit
department. But do you know, Ghafar had to go round and rake the dustbin to
get his breakfast. He will tell you the story himself. You go and talk to
him, tell him you are writing a book for Tunku and anything he wants to say
will be very useful. He was the original member of the Malay Nationalist
Party, MNP. As soon as I took over from Dato Onn, he left and joined me. He
was one of the strongest supporters and helped to build up Umno. You go and
see him.
K Das: These people are not very happy to see me because I am writing about
you.
Tunku: You just say, "I am writing the Tunku's story. Have you anything to
contribute because according to Tunku, you were one of his comrades, one of
his strongest comrades when fighting for independence. Have you anything to
say about it?"

The Tunku tapes: Umno's power struggle - Part 5
Last modified: Sunday December 30, 6:37 pm
11:26am, Sun: special
The power struggle within Umno between Team A led by Prime Minister Mahathir
Mohamad and Team B led by Razaleigh Hamzah was visible from about 1986. The
split in Umno was dramatically shown at the party general assembly in April
1987 when Mahathir was re-elected by the skin of his teeth. What followed
was the sacking of Team B ministers from the cabinet. Team B members then
went to court to seek a ruling that the outcome of the April 1987 party
elections be declared null and void.
On Oct 27, 1987, Mahathir unleashed 'Operation Lallang', detaining more than
106 dissidents (including the editor of this book, Kua Kia Soong) without
trial under the Internal Security Act. Under the atmosphere of oppression,
the Lord President and three Supreme Court judges were sacked. Umno was
subsequently declared "illegal" by the court. Team went on to form Umno Baru
(New Umno). Throughout, the Tunku was staunchly on the side of Razaleigh.
Tunku: The last Umno assembly consisted of 1,479 members but their assembly
(Umno Baru) has only 35 members. What kind of assembly is this? They've
changed everything. Who appointed him (Mahathir)? He says 35 members
appointed him and Ghafar (Baba). He appointed the others. How they appointed
him I don't know.
K Das: I was told that what they plan to do is to initiate a cadre system
like in Singapore. In a cadre system you become a more or less...
Tunku: A dictator, lah! How does it work?
K Das: Basically when you appoint somebody, he becomes a kind of a liaison
officer, a permanent liaison officer and they become members of the board,
special members. They have special links with the leaders. So these fellows
are appointed and all the leaders would be picked from the cadres. In other
words it is a party within a party.
Tunku: First form a cadre, then appoint an official cadre - in other words,
it is a closed system like Lee Kuan Yew's!
K Das: Do you think he will go for the general elections?
Tunku: He has been avoiding the elections all the time. He wants to avoid
going back to the status quo ante and hold the election at that level, the
general assembly of Umno. He should have gone back but he didn't want to
because he is afraid of elections. He worked his way around where Umno was
declared illegal, so he could set up his own Umno, collected his supporters,
registered them and included all the divisional branches. He has collected

his own men but underground, the soil was giving way and the only way was to
bury the whole lot of them. How he is going to avoid holding elections I
don't know.
K Das: He is trying a new constitutional system whereby every nomination
gives him 10 seats automatically. So as soon as he is nominated, he gets 10
votes from every division. He has arranged for that, so when he goes to the
elections, before the voting begins, he already has 10 votes in his hands.
Since all the divisions are under his control, they will all nominate him. I
suspect when he goes to the assembly, somebody will propose that there be no
elections because he already has 1,000 votes . Indonesian style, so-called
consensus.
Tunku: That is in Indonesia.
K Das: But Indonesia is run along those lines you know. Of course the whole
idea is to avoid elections.
Tunku: I visualised this sort of thing would happen. When we drafted the
law, when we drafted the constitution, the election regulations and so on,
we just stated straight-forward democratic like elections...
Three robbers
Tunku: I am not trying to put him (Mahathir) up to ridicule or contempt, I
am just telling the people what sort of man he was. You see how he started
by libelling me - he called me a man without conscience. He said all the
Malays hated me, that at the time during the Emergency, I played poker. I do
not know how he knew if I played poker or not .Actually, he is talking about
what he is himself. He is just worse than that. That is what I was trying to
prove to the people, what type of man he is and so I decided to write this
book. I started with the events, I did not imagine the things happening. As
the events happened, I made my little comments as to why it happened and
all.
K Das: In your concept of the book, in all these events, do you intend to
begin with the current events and carry on?
Tunku: I am writing about all these events as they happened. You see, I sent
in my affidavit because that was what we thought was the right stand for
Umno. Umno stood for Malaysia, Malaysia for Umno. I mentioned that when Dato
Onn (Jaafar) wanted to open the door to non-Malays, the Umno people refused
to accept and so I came and took over when Dato Onn left.
He was not expelled, he left on his own accord, on his own free will to form
a new party, IMP (Independence of Malaya Party). And then I took over Umno
and carried on until we got our independence. But we worked, built it up and
turned it, by the time I left, into a powerful political party in this
country, the strongest political party in this country.

Then all of a sudden, this thing has happened today. And as it happens, the
prime minister has said he is forming a new Umno to take over the old Umno
after the court has declared it illegal. But the Umno he has formed is not
the same as the old Umno. He has restricted membership, all are his own
members, all his own supporters. Those who do not support him cannot join.
He cannot take over the whole of Umno unless he follows every rule and law
and regulation of Umno. But he has not done that.
As soon as we protested to the court asking for an injunction, the court
refused to give on the grounds that they are right, they have followed the
constitution. They are recognised, they are registered, but we are not. We
were the first to apply but they won't give us . what to do? There is no
law, no justice, no freedom of speech. Anybody who speaks out goes to
prison. So he's got all the members of the opposition in prison. Now, what
kind of politics are we having today?
This is what worries me and all the responsible citizens in this country, no
matter what race they come from. We are all worried. The country is drained,
dry, no more capital. People are saying, in this country today there are
three big robbers - Umno robs the bank, MCA robs the co-operative societies
and the MIC robs the highway. They have become bank robbers, co-operative
robbers and highway robbers. That is what they are saying. That is a sad
thing that should not have happened.
Republic in two weeks
K Das: In your book, you have traced these events up to the current
situation. I thought our troubles became really clear during the
constitutional crisis in 1983 when this man's character became clear. Do you
agree with that? In 1983, Mahathir tried to change the constitution but the
Rulers' assent was not forthcoming.
Tunku: I wrote about that in my book. He could set up a republic in this
country within two weeks. All he has to do is put it to the parliament with
his two-thirds majority, they accept it and if the consent does not come or
is not approved or disapproved within two weeks, it becomes law.
And so, he can turn this country from a monarchy into a republic in two
weeks. There are other amendments to the constitution and that is why I
suggested there should be a review of the constitution. It was to review the
constitution that Chandra (Muzaffar) held a seminar for. As a result of
that, Chandra was taken in (under Operation Lallang) and my paper (The Star)
suspended.
K Das: That is why I asked you Tunku, was it not the constitutional
amendments of 1983 which were the beginning of all he tried to change?
Tunku: There are many changes he has made. This is not the only one but I

don't want to say it is the beginning. I did not take it seriously then but
I was becoming concerned and that is why I suggested we should have a
review. If anything needs to be changed, there should be a review before
changes are made so that the people will have an idea of what is happening.
But changes are made so suddenly by them and nobody speaks against it, it
becomes law.
K Das: Many people wanted the review, including the Sultan of Perak, Sultan
Azlan Shah.
Tunku: There was a proposal before when we drafted the constitution. We
suggested there should be a review in 10 or 12 years, I can't remember. But
he won't have it. He wanted to bring about change all the time. The worst
thing was the meeting of the Umno Assembly on the April 14, 1987. That is
what started the whole thing.
K Das: Exactly one year tomorrow.
Tunku: When they had the general election, he nearly lost except for the 30
unregistered members who cast their votes in his favour, giving him the
seat. After that, normally when any question arises, he should have agreed
to go back to the status quo ante.
They called for it but he did not oblige because he knew he could not win
and so we took the case to the court which declared the whole thing illegal.
It suited him very well and so he started this new party but we started
first. Actually both were wrong. When a party is declared illegal, you've
got to wait for the court of appeal to decide.
K Das: But nobody appealed.
Tunku: We appealed.
K Das: At that time?
Best judiciary in Asia
Tunku: We appealed afterwards but they did not. They came in later on April
13. Now that the appeal has been made, they've got a stay of execution until
the appeal ...Then we asked for an injunction but they wouldn't give it to
us. That is why I don't understand the law now . very confusing. They took
this man Ajaib (Singh), who is a non-Malay. He was very concerned about all
this and then I heard from this lady Marina (Yusuf), who said that the chief
judge went to the chambers of Ajaib to talk to him.
K Das: When?
Tunku: When the case had started, the same day.

K Das: Really? My goodness, that's wrong!
Tunku: He's a friend of Mahathir's. He knows there is no more democracy. You
say anything, you get put in and you are not allowed to reply nor allowed to
hold rallies to defend yourself. Only Mahathir can go from place to place to
attack us. He must be stopped from doing that because we can't reply. Our
request was fair enough.
If he wants to persist in doing that he should allow us to reply but they
won't allow. He says democracy in this country is freedom of speech to all
but surely he is not blind to what is happening here. We cannot talk. How
can you say there's freedom when it is clear that this is not the case?
K Das: I also feel that if the judges behave like this, they would soon get
a bad reputation abroad.
Tunku: They have got it now.
K Das: Because our judges have a very good reputation overseas.
Tunku: We are the best in Asia.
K Das: Param Cumarasamy was telling me in Australia and New Zealand, he was
complimented many times on our judiciary.
Tunku: We have a free judiciary just now. As a result of what has happened
in the case of (Lim) Kit Siang (in challenging the North-South Highway
concession) where it was decided by a majority of three against two that Kit
Siang had no right to interfere with the...
K Das: No locus standi.
Tunku: But what is he? He is a leader of the opposition. If things like this
happen, if he cannot talk, who can?
K Das: I am trying to get this book in my mind while you are talking but I
can see now that you can begin basically with the Umno Assembly and build up
to the present state.
Tunku: Yes, I will start with the Umno Assembly - big, big change.
Inferiority complex is his disease and to overcome that he is now forcing
himself over and above others, almost insinuating that the Rulers should not
be there.
K Das: This is the point that I was insisting earlier when I was working
with the Far Eastern Economic Review, that his aim was to get rid of the
Rulers.
Tunku: He did not directly say that, but that's the way he is behaving...

K Das: When they amended the constitution, you said...
Tunku: .that I was afraid that when it came to the Rulers, they must approve
within two weeks anything passed by Parliament. If they do not, it becomes
law - that made me nervous.
K Das: If it is unchallenged, we become a republic.
Irresponsible man
Tunku: We can become a republic in two weeks - that is dangerous. He is an
irresponsible man. He cares nothing for class, for law, for order, for the
constitution. What suits him, he just does it. You remember once he said
that you must be loyal, you must not idolise the leader? But what did he do?
He called everybody to Parliament to swear allegiance to him. Now he is
going round the country on a so-called campaign . campaign for what? To
support him, not to support the party. If he wants them to support the
party, then bring back the old Umno.
K Das: Or have an assembly, invite everybody!
Tunku: Having an assembly would show that he has respect for the party, but
that is what he is trying to avoid.
K Das: He's developing a personality cult.
Tunku: No, he suffers from that disease - inferiority complex. That is one
of the diseases we find in the political world. Look at Idi Amin - he got 10
Englishmen to carry him in a chair in order to overcome his inferiority
complex. That is dangerous. It's a way of taking revenge. That is what he is
doing.
K Das: He seems to be without shame because he said there should be no
public rallies and yet he holds rallies quite blatantly.
Tunku: For himself yes . but for other people, rallies are not allowed.
K Das: You could not speak in Kelantan, Razaleigh could not speak in
Kelantan...
Tunku: Why? Because he is not being fair-minded. He tells the world he is a
fair minded man, a just man, a true leader. He only does it to take over
television. Every time the TV starts, it's, "PM says this, DPM says this,
Mat Rahmat says this." What else is there to say? So they attack people.
This is the reason for the affidavit which I brought to court - to stop him
from doing this. But the court says he is right. Freedom of speech for whom?
Freedom of speech for him, but others like me and Hussein Onn cannot speak.

K Das: Have you seen Tun Hussein?
Tunku: I went to call on him. He was in the emergency ward. They are sending
him out of emergency now.
K Das: He is very unlucky with his health?
Tunku: Yes.
Bapa Proton Saga
K Das: I was told by Chandra that when he (Mahathir) was in Perlis, he made
a speech in a rally in which he said all sorts of silly things. He made some
remarks about how some people are called "Bapa (Father) this" and Bapa
that".very rude of him. But Chandra said there were so many threatening
letters to him, death threats and letters, very heavy security. He was
scared. People are getting angry and yet even then, he still makes very
provocative remarks.
Tunku: Yes, we cannot answer. Now for instance, about "Bapa this and that",
I did not ask them to call me "Bapa". They did that on their own accord. I
was not even officially designated "Bapa Malaysia" (Father of Malaysia).
People liked to call me that. Now he says they must stop calling me that.
K Das: Chandra was saying that they called him, "Bapa Proton Saga (The
National Car)". They called Tunku Razaleigh "Bapa Ekonomi Malaysia". When he
was a very young man, Tunku Razaleigh told me in those days I am nobody's
bapa, yet why are they calling me this?
Tunku: We did not ask for this. Out of sheer regard, consideration and
thought for us - this is a Malay habit, Malay custom. Customs and habits die
hard.
K Das: I think when people do this out of their own hearts, nobody should
detract from it. I think it is what the Malays call "kurang ajar". When
someone is going out of his way to express his feelings, you cannot
criticise him because you are just criticising yourself.
Tunku: He is free to say what he wants to say but nobody else can reply and
this is what is in my affidavit. He must not talk unless he allows us to
talk or defend ourselves. Then he brings up the May 13 riots to scare the
people.

The Tunku tapes: Mahathir's inferiority complex - Part 6
Last modified: Monday December 31, 7:17 pm
11:28am, Mon: special According to Tunku Abdul Rahman, Prime Minister Dr
Mahathir Mohamad has an inferiority complex. This was because his
grandfather was an Indian and father was part-Malay. Furthermore, he is a
commoner.
K Das: He (Mahathir) is following Lee Kuan Yew's style.
Tunku: No, Lee Kuan Yew had his path all cleared, nicely cleared and he
would travel along that path. But Mahathir's path is cluttered. He has not
got his way cleared. It is not the same.
K Das: I was thinking of Lee Kuan Yew in the early days. He had all these
potholes but he used his force...
Tunku: I know him well. He used to consult me. He used to clear the path
first. He just travelled on the potholes with the referendum he had. I said
to him, "Are you sure you are going to win your referendum because this
other PAP leader Dr Lee Siew Choh appears to be very strong."
He was very sure. He was going to do this, he was going to do that and then
he started to campaign very early, playing Chinese music and what have you,
going all over the place. He worked really hard. He cleared his path.
But this man does not do this, he wants the easiest way out by using his
power. He does not care what happens underneath. That is why I said if he
fights the election, he does not know whether he will get the support of the
grassroots, he goes to the kampong to get his seats but Kuan Yew always
prepared his way, that I know.
K Das: But if he is afraid of losing the battle, he will tell that man to
back down.
Tunku: He won't ask him to back down, he will just put the man in detention.
He is not that type of man. But one thing - you can take that from me - he
is one of those who hate all this Malay adat (etiquette) and custom. He
hates all this.
K Das: He is the one who made the classic statement that Malays are too
polite.
Tunku: He? I wish he were polite.
K Das: I once asked him, "Is it possible for any person in the world to be
too polite?" He said he had to think about that...
No respect

Tunku: You see, the Malays have a cause for adat, resam and so on .
tradition. I have a respect for it but he has none. He dislikes it. You see,
his whole aim is to upset the constitution and turn this country into a
republic. His son was in London talking quite openly amongst the students
that his father is going to be the first president of Malaysia.
K Das: I heard his daughter was also talking about it here.
Tunku: The daughter?
K Das: Yes, Marina.
Tunku: The one married to the chef?
K Das: Yes. Apparently she was caught talking about it at a party not
knowing that behind her was one of the Tengkus from Negeri Sembilan who
overheard it. She said that as soon as the constitution amendment is signed,
it is finished, we can become a republic.
Tunku: That is the thing. That is his ambition. His health has suffered as a
result of this class consciousness. They did not give him a place. That is
why he told this man Dr Ling (Liong Sik) that I never liked him even as a
boy.
K Das: I cannot understand why he felt at that time he was special. He was
just another doctor in Kedah. What was so special about him?
Tunku: That is why he hates all these aristocrats and so on because he has
no standing. You know his grandfather came from India. His father is half
Indian or three-quarters Indian. Then his father came to Alor Setar and
married a Malay and so he is half or three-quarters Malay and one quarter
Indian. But nevertheless, he has felt a certain . er, you know . as if they
looked down on him.
To overcome that inferiority complex, which as I told you before is the
worst disease a man can have, you would do things you wouldn't normally do.
Like in my case, in those days when I was in Cambridge, they despised
coloured people who came from India and elsewhere. Anybody whose colour was
black or dark, they would call an Indian and they really showed it. To
overcome this feeling of inferiority I bought the most expensive, at that
time, super sports car and I sped through town in it making quite a nuisance
of myself. Just to be noticed.
K Das: As a young man it is different.
Tunku: But the inferiority complex is there. It forces you to do all the
things you do not want to do.

K Das: Being a young man is understandable. Being a mature man...
Spoilsport
Tunku: Some carry this complex throughout their lives. Like this man Idi
Amin - to overcome his inferiority complex, he asked the Englishmen to carry
him on a chair. You see, you just carry on, there is no end to it. But in my
case, perhaps because of my upbringing, when I got what I wanted that was
the end of it all.
I did not like the British before because they were sombong (proud). They
liked to throw their weight around everywhere, everything had to be for
them. Now we are educated, we can at least call ourselves their equal but we
do not like to be considered their inferior. We feel we know enough about
administration, politics and everything else. We are as good as they are and
if we are qualified with the same degree as them and we are given certain
jobs while they are given top jobs, now that is the sort of thing that
annoyed me. I have been good and friendly with them. I helped them, I showed
them a lot.
K Das: In fact, one of the things we remember about you Tunku in the club is
that when the club was renewed, you allowed them to retain for a long time
their privilege to get liquor duty free.
Tunku: Oh yes! I gave them everything they used to have.
K Das: But I think that the first prime minister who refused to give, as the
president of the club, was Mahathir.
Tunku: Mahathir? Before that, they were given duty free . I believe in
living and being happy, otherwise what the hell do you want to live for? How
long do you expect to live for? Only yesterday I was running and jumping
about as a kid, then as a young man, then a grown-up man, now I can't even
walk. So why the hell do you want to make a nuisance of your life and make
other people unhappy? Your duty when you take over leadership of the country
is to make the people happy, that is the main thing.
K Das: One of the extraordinary thing about prime ministers of this country
is that the first, second and third were not only lawyers but all interested
in sports. Now, the fourth prime minister is not a lawyer and is not
interested in sports.
Tunku: He is very much a loner.
K Das: To me, it is a very important for a man to love his sport, to have a
sporting habit.
Tunku: Yes, because those who love sport can understand. They compete with a
sporting instinct but this man has never liked that, he is a real

spoilsport.
Rule by law
K Das: Going back to the book I am writing on the current crisis - one
question I want to ask you is: I feel very strongly Dr Mahathir, and I
believe most of his cabinet do not understand what the rule of law means.
They know rule by law.
Tunku: They do not care.
K Das: How do you explain rule of law to these people. How do you put it
simply to them?
Tunku: The only thing we can do is to write, talk, hold conferences to bring
all this to their attention but now, because they do not know the rule of
law, they forbid us from doing all this. Anything that is likely to give
them the feeling that they are not doing their work, they will not allow.
They say they are the right people to run this government. All the time they
are campaigning from one end of the country to another.
The television every night broadcasts what the government is doing, what
this minister is doing, what that minister is doing and so on but never
about how the people are suffering, never about what the people want . only
what the government is doing.
We see so much of this that I don't turn on the news anymore. There is
nothing to listen to, only this self-opinionated government doing work for
the people. You cannot talk, you cannot hold seminars, you cannot write. My
efforts in writing a little bit is the most I can do. If I do any more, then
my paper (The Star) will be closed down again, suspended. And these people
who work with us, all 800 of them will be thrown out of their jobs. So I
cannot do anything.
K Das: Can you think of a simple way of explaining the difference between
the rule of law and the rule by law?
Tunku: This is what they are doing now. They don't know any rule of law,
they don't care about the law, they suspend and amend the law to suit their
plans. So they rule by the law which they know to keep themselves in power.
If you disagree with them or criticise them then you go to prison. That is
what is happening here today.
K Das: How would you define the rule of law?
Tunku: You must observe the law, respect and uphold the law, that is how it
is supposed to be. To respect the rule of law, you don't have to be a
lawyer. We know the rule of the law is supposed to provide justice and so
on. We know all that, but there are certain questions that have to do with

justice and fair play.
Natural justice
K Das: The way I understand it, the rule of law is the rule by laws which
observe the principles of natural justice.
Tunku: That is the main thing - natural justice.
K Das: If you go beyond that, it is only a legality.
Tunku: That's right. To free the people of the world, we look toward natural
justice to provide us with protection and to give us freedom to do certain
things within the law, not outside of the law because there are so many
penal codes, laws that tell you where you go wrong, what is right and what
is wrong.
If you go and pinch somebody's money, you know you are doing wrong. If you
go and crack somebody's head, you know that you are doing wrong but all that
is within common knowledge of all men and so it is within that rule of law
that you can do anything you like. But of course in countries which we call
democratic countries like ours, the people are supposed to be free to follow
their way of life, to follow their religion, customs, habits and traditions.
K Das: New education and so on. For example, this man - when he was
interviewed by Tan Chee Khoon - says that capital punishment for drug
trafficking is not too severe. He said, "Well, they know what they are doing
so they can hang."
Tunku: When I first became prime minister of this country, I had a
discussion with the British government and the chairman of that group was
Lord Hare. I said to Lord Hare, "Whatever you do, you cannot stop this opium
habit and drug habit, you can't do it. The only thing you can do perhaps, is
to provide them with a medical certificate. With this certificate, you are
allowed to take opium."
He replied, "You see, I agree with you Tunku, the only thing is that the
United Nations has decided on this particular ban on the drug habit."
But I said, "They know you can't stop it, this trafficking will go on. The
same with prostitution, they decided against prostitution but can they stop
it? It is the oldest profession in the world. But they could not stop it.
Why don't they regulate the profession like in France? They had massage
houses in the old days where all the girls are examined medically so that
they can be certified to be free of disease and so on . but to stop it, you
know you cannot. Why do they want to mess things up like that? I am
particularly against the punishment of death for drug possession.
Secondly, there are certain kinds of drugs like ganja (marijuana). Ganja is

a drug that they take everywhere in the Middle East, in India, Pakistan and
so on. When I played golf in Pakistan, in Islamabad, all those bushes around
the golf course were all full of ganja. They grew wild everywhere. So to
punish people in possession of ganja with death is too severe when you can
grow it in the backyard. You must know how to prepare it, you cannot pack it
up and take it just like that. It won't be any good. When the Pakistani
caddy produced it from his pocket to taste, it was in a slab, black in
colour, like belacan (prawn paste).
K Das: I think the death sentence for drug trafficking is too severe and
besides, it does not work.
Tunku: It does not work, that is the point. Why not register the drug
addicts?
K Das: In fact, I want to go further and suggest that if you register them,
the drug traffickers will lose out because they have nothing to sell.
Tunku: Yes, they lose out.
Contracts for rich Malays
Tunku: Now my determination is to fight Mahathir. How I am going to fight
him I don't know except through my writing. But even then, I can't write too
much.
K Das: I think Tunku, what you told me last week or last month, I think it
is going to be prophetic because you said that he has made so many mistakes
...
Tunku: Everything's happened and he is going to pay for his own misdeeds. He
has not shown any results. Kuan Yew at least has shown some results,
building up Singapore into a very strong financial state from nothing. But
here, with all our wealth, he has wasted it all.
What I have been reading about the North-South Highway, this is his own
undoing. How can you do that when everybody was talking about how the
government is spending RM3.5 billion and the contracts have been given to
your own business interest. Then they collect the toll for 30 years. How can
you do a thing like that when the government is spending all that money! The
government should collect the toll.
K Das: The Malays are complaining because they are given the contracts only
to rich Malays. They are not giving poor Malays anything.
Tunku: More contracts have been given to Malays since Merdeka.
K Das: In those days, Malays, Chinese and Indians all got contracts...

Tunku: They were all given contracts. Razak started all this - only those
who support Umno get anything.
A police state
K Das: Yes, I have often thought about this. Indeed, Dato Onn could have
said, "No, I will do what I like." In those days it was so easy, not like
now, there was hardly any opposition. I think that he was a gentleman, there
is the difference.
Tunku: It comes from good breeding.
K Das: And he was not mad about power.
Tunku: He was ambitious but he wouldn't do anything wrong, even to cling to
power. He wouldn't abuse the constitution but this man is abusing it and
putting the fault on others.
K Das: He is using the police as if it was his own private army.
Tunku: But that's what he's been doing all along. That is why I call this a
police state. He can put me under house arrest like the Indonesian regime
did to Sukarno before, he can do that...
K Das: But on what grounds?
Tunku: Oh! Don't worry about the grounds - all my letters, all my articles
written against him, he doesn't require any more grounds than that. Others
have been sent in who have not done half as much as what I have written
against him.
My paper (The Star) can't be published but I put my articles in other
papers. No don't worry about the grounds. He can amass all the grounds in
order to meet his own object, to carry on with his desire to cripple me.

The Tunku Tapes: Judiciary under assault - Part 7
Last modified: Tuesday January 1, 5:56 pm
11:16am, Tue: special
In May 1988, while those dissidents detained without trial under "Operation
Lallang" were still languishing in Kamunting Detention Camp, Prime Minister
Mahathir Mohamad suspended two Supreme Court judges and removed the Lord
President Tun Salleh Abas, the highest judicial officer of the land.
This entire episode is recorded and told by K Das in one of his most
well-known books, May Day For Justice. This assault on the Malaysian
judiciary pre-empted the case brought to the courts by Umno's Team B led by
Mahathir's challenger, Razaleigh Hamzah. The verdict was a foregone
conclusion.
K Das: About the Lord President, have you read the story yet?
Tunku: Yes. When was he made Lord President?
K Das: Hamid (Omar)?
Tunku: Hamid. There is nothing in the New Straits Times, is there?
K Das: I think they are trying to make it a secret hearing, Tunku.
Tunku: Secret hearing!
K Das: I think it will be in the open.
Tunku: But he said that if the Lord President Salleh (Abas) wants it open,
they would have to agree to it.
K Das: He said that if they want it open, the tribunal would consider it but
it does not look like they are going to consider it. They also said that it
is up to the King to reveal it.
Tunku: We have never had it before so it is very difficult to say what is
going to happen but I don't like the charge of "misbehaviour". I think it
should be "misconduct". It really sounds bad.
K Das: What is the Malay word for "misconduct"?
Tunku: What do they say?
K Das: Nothing.
Tunku: Biadap (uncouth) is not a good word to use. The other word is kurang
ajar (lacking in breeding), which is even worse.

K Das: What about misconduct?
Tunku: Misconduct ... Not easy to translate. I think biadap or kurang ajar,
but the charge for misbehavior is bad. It should be "misconduct" for the
Lord President. And then he went to complain to the Agung . but where else
could he go? So I said in my letter to the Sultan of Kelantan, that it was
the only way open to him.
I added that if he (Mahathir) acquires that power, the pillar of justice
would fall. The Raja of Perlis was also very worried and he came to see me
but one day before his letter arrived, the Sultan of Kelantan also handed me
a letter. If he acquires all this power as dictator, there would be no
freedom to talk in Parliament or outside Parliament.
What has made me feel rather unhappy is that the Yang di Pertuan Agong took
action on his own without consulting the other rulers. That is what he
should have done - consult the rulers. What I feel strongly about is that
the Raja-Raja (Rulers) should call for the emergency meeting or Conference
of Rulers and discuss this matter with the Yang di Pertuan Agong. The people
would then have greater confidence in the Raja-Raja. Otherwise they would
feel very disappointed that the Raja-Raja do not seem to show any interest.
I want to give copies of this letter to the Rulers who have sympathy with us
and I hope they will give their permission to send copies to the other
Rulers. Personally I feel that Salleh has no choice but to write to the
Rulers and to the Agong and tell them his predicament as head of the
judiciary when the law was interfered with by the executive and I agree to
what he has done. That was what I said.
K Das: So you are asking his permission to circulate this letter to the
Rulers?
Tunku: Yes, copies to the Rulers who are in sympathy with us . "Perkembangan
pertalian di antara pihak perentah dan judiciary" . "With regard to the
relationship between the executive and the judiciary.the PM appears to
favour the Umno cases that were brought to trial in the courts ... I feel
that you might wish to know what took place." This was the letter that the
Lord President sent to the Rulers, I sent a copy of the letter which I
received.
K Das: That is the covering note.
Tunku: (reading first paragraph of the letter and translating it). He wrote
to the secretary of the Sultan. He writes on behalf of himself and on behalf
of the other judges of the High Court.
"We feel lost because many things, many comments and innuendoes have been
made by the PM" . suggesting they are not doing right and so on." We have

been very patient even though we did not do anything and we never replied to
all his comments and criticisms"...
At least not officially. He embarrassed all the judges with all this
criticism. It would not be right or proper for him to make an official
comment.
"I would like to remind him that we are judges and this criticism was made
outside as well as inside parliament. Whatever it was, we are judges,
exercising our patience and keeping quiet. Under the constitution, we are
supposed to be free and independent before the Agong and the Raja-Raja
Melayu. As such, it is our right to defend the constitution. We feel ashamed
to be criticised in this way and so we hope that all this attack on the
judges and the judiciary will stop. This is all I wish to inform your
Majesty."
You see, they were in an awkward situation. They feel that the Rulers and
the Agung should defend the constitution and ask him to stop.
Judicial 'misbehaviour'
K Das: In the present situation, do you think Salleh Abas - we know he was
frustrated - but was it right on his part to write to the Agong?
Tunku: That is the point you see. They are supposed to be appointed by the
Agong and as it happened in this case, he wanted to leave the service so he
had to write to the Agong.
K Das: Not the PM?
Tunku: No, you see the Agong gave him the letter asking him to leave. Since
he intended to retire, he asked him to leave but the letter came from the
Agong not from the PM. Of course, he said the actual work was done by the
PM. All the judges were appointed by me. Whether he has the right to write
to the Agong or not, that is not the question, it is difficult for me to
answer but he was desperate enough.
All this was the work of the PM - interfering with the judiciary was the act
of the PM. What is the use of his writing to the PM? He might as well write
to the Agong and the Rulers to inform them and at the same time prepare to
resign. This is what was in his mind. Then after he had sent the letter of
resignation, he felt that this letter might be an admission of his guilt
because he did not feel he was guilty, so he withdrew the letter and asked
the government to take whatever action they wanted. So they had to appoint
this tribunal to decide on this "misbehaviour", as they called it.
K Das: I can't understand how they can accuse him of misbehaviour.
Tunku: I don't think they should use the word for when you disagree with the

government. I don't know what they should use - misbehaviour sounds very
small.
K Das: It is used for something petty....
Tunku: Or for a very big case of misbehaviour, to discredit the person in
public.
K Das: But he did not do anything...
Tunku: No, that is the thing. He wrote to the Rulers but they accused him of
siding with our side, interfering with Umno. As far as I am concerned, he
never wrote to me or talked to me about this.
K Das: Apparently, he wanted to recommend that the Supreme Court must sit on
the appeal with the full quorum of nine judges.
Tunku: That is right, that is what I heard.
K Das: They got very worried about that.
Tunku: But why did they say he was tied to our Umno?
K Das: I think they felt that if there were nine judges, their chances would
be reduced. They must have felt that this man was deliberately putting the
whole bench because they were standing by his side. But there was no element
of suspicion.
Tunku: As far as we are concerned, you said it to us - that he is partial to
a judge.
K Das: I was told that Raja Aziz (Addruse) used his right as a counsel when
he asked for a full bench?
Tunku: He did, but they didn't give.
K Das: They didn't give?
Tunku: So what?
K Das: Apparently they wanted and for some time there was a talk of seven
judges but I think Mahathir objected even to that.
Tunku: He wanted five.
K Das: Or maybe one. You know as small a number as possible. That seemed to
be his worry.
Tunku: But as far as we are concerned, we have no evidence that he ever took

our side.
K Das: What surprised me today Tunku is that they have now elevated...
Tunku: Harun.
K Das: Why is that?
Tunku: That is what I can't understand. First they put him in Commercial,
then they made him Supreme Court judge. I don't think it is very difficult
to read his mind.
K Das: Do you think they are afraid he might be involved in some more
commercial crimes?
Tunku: I don't know, to push him upstairs, maybe.
K Das: But of course, if he is Supreme Court judge in the case of the 11
Umno people, he will also be very strong.
Going too far
Tunku: No, I've touched on that in the article I am going to show you.
K Das: I saw that. Why did he do that? Why did he change a written judgment?
Tunku: Well, the written judgment is the one that counts. The oral judgment
just decides that the person is guilty so the sentence is passed, but when
the person appeals to the Appeal Court then you've got to use the records of
the written judgment on which to base your judgment. That is what he did.
But this man liked the oral judgment, he did not like the written judgment.
So he criticised him. It is not right for a PM to criticise judges.
K Das: I think they have gone too far now.
Tunku: Mahathir? Yes, much too far.
K Das: To go against Tun Salleh was a very dangerous thing to do. In fact,
the Bar Council is up in arms. They are all very angry. In fact they called
for a meeting of the entire Bar in the whole country. One lawyer told me in
Penang that he is recommending that they all close down for one week in
protest.
Tunku: I think it will be a good thing.
K Das: But I don't know whether they will do it.
Tunku: Because the life of a man is dependent on their help.

K Das: His good name, his whole life is dependent on it.
Tunku: I think that what they should do is have a meeting and send him the
protest, send the protest to him. They can work it out.
K Das: I have got a feeling that they want to get rid of him.
Tunku: That is really bad.
K Das: But I can't recall, Tunku, of any other Lord President or Supreme
Court judge in the whole world being suspended like that.
Tunku: I have never known myself.
K Das: I think the nearest one was the impeachment of an American judge many
years ago.
Tunku: I have not heard of this.
K Das: In the British Commonwealth, I have certainly never heard of it.
Tunku: The time will come. We have to find a way to put this man in his
place. We cannot at the moment because he controls the law - what do you do
with a man like that? But the time will come...
----------------------------------------------------------------
The Tunku Tape - a newly launched book based on the interviews of Malaysia's
first prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman by veteran journalist K Das. The
book is edited by social activist Dr Kua Kia Soong and is published by
Strategic Info Research Development.
_________

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