A Harvard Business School professor of strategy observes that leaders become better strategists by engaging in conversation about the purpose of a company. Cynthia Montgomery's perspective, based on her experience with executive education for entrepreneurs and managers, could reconcile long-standing debates about position versus resources, analysis versus execution, and entrepreneurship versus large business management.

1. strategy+business
issue 70 SPRING 2013
The Thought Leader
Interview:
Cynthia Montgomery
A Harvard Business School strategy professor observes that leaders
become better strategists by engaging in conversations about
the purpose of a company.
by KEN FAVARO AND ART KLEINER
reprint 00163

2. thought leader
The Thought Leader Interview:
Cynthia Montgomery
A Harvard Business School strategy professor observes that
leaders become better strategists by engaging in conversations
about the purpose of a company.
by Ken Favaro and Art Kleiner
herself in the middle of a little-
known but strongly felt debate that
has gone on since the early 1980s in
executive education and similar mi-
lieus. On one side is the “positioning
school” of business strategy: Success
depends on analyzing industry dy-
namics and competitive advantage,
and staking out a position that is
most resistant to competition on the
basis of industry forces. Montgom-
ery’s credentials on this side include
numerous articles in leading eco-
nomics and management journals,
and co-editorship with Michael Por-
ter of the influential anthology
Strategy: Seeking and Securing Com-
petitive Advantage (Harvard Busi-
ness School Press, 1991). On the
W
hen you look at strategy education programs at Harvard for other side is a perspective known
as a frame of mind to be leaders of owner-managed compa- in academia as the “resource-based
thought leader
cultivated, rather than nies. It is also grounded in her work view of the firm”: Success depends
as a plan to be executed, you are far with large diversified companies. on cultivating the capabilities and
more likely to succeed over the long For example, she has served on assets that no one else can match.
run. That is the core premise put the boards of Newell Rubbermaid, One of the leading developers of this
forth by Cynthia Montgomery, the UnumProvident, and several mu- field is Montgomery’s husband,
Photograph by Brad DeCecco
Timken Professor of Business Ad- tual funds, as well as on the board of MIT Sloan School professor Birger
ministration and former chair of the McLean Hospital, a not-for-profit Wernerfelt. Montgomery and David
strategy unit at Harvard Business organization based near Boston. Collis built on the resource school’s
School, in her book The Strategist: Throughout her career, Mont- insights in “Competing on Resourc-
Be the Leader Your Business Needs gomery, who has also taught busi- es: Strategy in the 1990s” (Harvard
(HarperBusiness, 2012). The book ness strategy at Northwestern Uni- Business Review, July–August 1995),
is based in part on her work over the versity’s Kellogg School and the one of the most reprinted articles in
1 past five years teaching executive University of Michigan, has found the history of HBR.

3. Montgomery’s new book and But it’s just one of many things that they’re talking about their own
her ongoing research into strategists’ the CEO is responsible for. So strat- companies. They revert to the same
attitudes and actions represent an ef- egy becomes an area for experts. old generics that could apply to any
fort to move past the dichotomy, The company draws on specialists to company: “We will succeed because
and to focus on what it means for a help with external analysis, to do a we’re the quality leaders, we’re best
leader to be a strategist. To Mont- deep dive on competitors, and to in class, we have the lowest costs,”
gomery, a business strategist is not look at trends around the world. and so on.
primarily an analyst of position, or All of that may indeed provide
of resources; nor is the strategist incredible added value. It’s certainly S+B: The same old “blah, blah, blah.”
purely adaptive, responding reac- helpful in setting the stage. But un- MONTGOMERY: Exactly. For many
tively to the vagaries of fate. He or derlying all this activity is a funda- leaders, there’s an immense gap be-
she is someone who engages in a mental question that any company’s tween intellectually understanding
conversation about the purpose of a leader must ultimately answer: the theory of strategy and being able
company. The company rises or falls What will this firm be, and why will to apply it in their own businesses.
on the quality of that conversation it matter? This is not a soft, philo- It’s only by directly engaging in
and the way it is used to make deci- sophical question. It is a hard-nosed, strategy themselves that most lead-
sions about the ongoing work of the economic one. As my former col- ers internalize the important ques-
enterprise. league Adam Brandenburger puts it, tions and get a clear sense of what’s
To get a clearer view of that “Why would the world need this involved—the trade-offs, choices,
approach, and what it might mean business? What would be different if commitments, and actions—in
for senior executives, we sat down it didn’t exist?” bringing a strategy to life. In work-
with Cynthia Montgomery in her And a leader can’t consider the ing with these executives in class,
office at Harvard Business School in question just once and be done with my goal is to help them confront the
November 2012. (She subsequently it. That question needs a compelling gap between the high standards
obtained permission to publish the answer every day of a firm’s exis- they’re developing for others’ strate-
anecdotes in which students are tence, an answer that’s relevant as gies, and the often considerably less
named.) This interview provides a the business evolves, and as markets rich reality of their own.
glimpse of the direction that we and customers evolve. To enable that
think many business schools will kind of continuous evolution, strat- S+B: How do you try to accomplish
take in the years ahead: combining egy should never be thought of as a this in the programs you teach?
the positioning and resource views, problem that’s been solved and set- MONTGOMERY: I’ve taught some
the entrepreneurship and manage- tled. There are occasional dramatic courses with 180 owner–managers
ment roles, and the strategy and changes, but mostly it’s an evolu- coming to campus for three, three-
execution imperatives into a single tionary process, with the CEO at week sessions, spaced a year apart.
discipline that could be described as the center. When they enter the program’s third
“identifying and realizing the pur- In some executive courses, I ask session, they work on their own
thought leader
pose of your organization.” students to describe the strategy for strategies. First they write up a stra-
their companies. Many of them start tegic plan on their own, with input
S+B: You’ve written that a leader out thinking that the goal is to have from their teams back home, then
who wholeheartedly embraces a a product, get it all down in writing, they share their work with one an-
strategic perspective is not the same and they’re done. But the process other. That’s when things get really
as a conventional manager. Why not? doesn’t end there. We bring the serious.
MONTGOMERY: Think about who strategies up for critique, and they We usually divide the group
does strategy in most large compa- have to defend them. It’s always sur- into cohorts of eight to 10 people.
nies and where the strategist typi- prising to see how the same individ- Each person presents his or her strat-
cally resides in an organization. It’s uals who are good on their feet and egy to the cohort, and then each co-
not the CEO; it’s a specialist func- have brilliant things to say when hort selects one strategy to present to
tion. Of course, everybody says that talking about a case study like Nike the full class. I ask them to select the
strategy is the CEO’s responsibility. or General Electric falter when one that makes the most use of the 2

4. Ken Favaro Art Kleiner
ken.favaro@booz.com kleiner_art@
is a contributing editor to strategy-business.com
strategy+business and a senior is editor-in-chief of
partner with Booz & Company. strategy+business.
Based in New York, he leads
the firm’s work in enterprise
strategy and finance.
principles we’ve talked about togeth- you doing that’s really distinctive?” document, or an occasional exercise.
er. We end up with about 20 strate- Sometimes he’d put it as I did in It should be a way of looking at the
gies presented to the full class, 10 class: “Help me understand why world, interpreting experience, and
each in two long sessions. Each strat- your business really matters.” And thinking about what a company is
egy is critiqued by another group, he kept after them until they gave a and why it matters. The formal stra-
and then discussed openly by the thorough answer. By the end of tegic planning process is only part of
whole class. The sessions go on for those sessions, everybody had inter- it; the deeper responsibility is ongo-
hours. The people in the room typi- nalized those questions. I came to ing and continuous. I often refer to a
cally have very helpful things to say, feel that this process was the heart of quote from the great 19th-century
so much so that we now give an a strategic conversation. A leader Prussian military strategist Helmuth
award for the best critique, along builds a strategy through in-depth von Moltke: “Certainly the com-
with an award for the best strategy conversations with a group of his or mander in chief will keep his great
presentation. her peers, testing the ideas against a objective continuously in mind, un-
The tone for the critiques was variety of situations. Knowing how disturbed by the vicissitudes of
set several years ago by Jack, an ex- to do that well will serve the gradu- events. But the path on which he
ecutive from Venezuela. Between ates better as leaders than any par- hopes to reach it can never be firmly
the second and third year of the ticular plan they develop at Harvard established in advance. Throughout
program, as pressures from Hugo Business School. the campaign he must make a series
Chavez’s government increased, of decisions on the basis of situations
Jack’s business suffered; it lacked a S+B: Are you saying that in a well- that cannot be foreseen…. Every-
clear growth path. He came back for run company, the CEO should have a thing depends on penetrating the
thought leader
the third year anyway, and as he group of senior executives who play uncertainty of veiled situations to
dealt with his own challenges, he be- the same questioning role? evaluate the facts, to clarify the un-
came a major presence in the class. MONTGOMERY: That’s right. And known, to make decisions rapidly,
Jack was a regular at the pre- yet that’s not the way it works in and then to carry them out with
class lounge sessions, which often many companies today; business strength and constancy.”
went on well past midnight. Stu- heads make presentations, but often That’s the job of a business
dents came there to test out their they’re choreographed ahead of strategist, no less than a military
strategies with me and whoever else time, and they often don’t question commander, and it’s a challenging
strategy+business issue 70
was interested, and often 30 or 40 their peers as much as they could. balancing act—an ongoing, not a
people would show up. I’d like to see the managers at all periodic, responsibility. Unfortu-
Jack took the seat next to mine, those meetings raise the game by nately, that’s not the way strategy is
night after night. He asked each pre- challenging one another. generally taught in business schools,
3 senter the same question: “What are A strategy shouldn’t be only a and it hasn’t been for a long time.

5. The Capstone Course change their approach to strategy in have a course called General Man-
the early 1980s after Michael Porter agement. Nor do most other busi-
S+B: How has the teaching of strat- introduced the idea of competitive ness schools. Many students have
egy changed? analysis. His course material on the come to view entrepreneurial man-
MONTGOMERY: Back when I was an subject was wildly popular because agement courses as the capstone ex-
MBA student in the 1970s, strategy he brought economic rigor to the perience of the MBA curriculum,
at most schools was taught as part analysis of strategy. On its own, that where you learn about defining busi-
of a course called Business Policy was absolutely good. It transformed nesses, moving them through
and General Management. It was the era. My own work followed in growth, changing course, and doing
thought of as the capstone course; it that wake. Using large-sample statis- it again. But entrepreneurship cours-
came last in the sequence, after mar- tical analysis, I examined the rela- es don’t teach people how to run a
keting, finance, production, and or- tionship between the overall profit- large company; they teach them how
ganizational behavior. Having seen ability of a corporate enterprise and to create and finance a startup. If we
care about improving the quality of
large-enterprise strategy, we manage-
“A strategy should be a way of looking ment academics have to avoid hoist-
ing ourselves on our own petard.
at the world, interpreting experience,
and thinking about what a company is S+B: Hasn’t the specialized, analytic
approach to strategy lost some of its
and why it matters.” value in recent years?
MONTGOMERY: Yes. It started to
level off in the early 2000s. I saw
all the pieces, the student was sup- the average profitability of the in- that recently when, as part of my
posed to put them together. The dustries in which it competed. work on The Strategist, I talked with
course combined thinking and do- But over time, the economics several speakers bureaus, thinking
ing, strategy formulation and strate- began to distract people from the the subject of strategy would be hot.
gy execution. The main textbook, leadership aspect of strategy. Before But instead, they said they would
Business Policy: Texts and Cases, was long, strategy at many top business market me as a speaker on innova-
written by legends in the field: C. schools was taught by economists tion or change management. Their
thought leader
Roland Christensen, Joseph Bower, focused on theory and analytics. If interest in my book came not from
and Kenneth Andrews [Irwin, 1965, you do this, how will your competi- the topic of strategy per se, but from
rev’d. 1982]. The very first chapter tors respond? How do the structural its focus on what strategy means for
was called “The Presidential Point of characteristics of an industry shape business leaders.
View.” Another major section was competitive behavior? All important The discussions helped me
called “The Accomplishment of issues, to be sure, but gradually strat- come to terms with how much strat-
Purpose.” To this day, I tell the ex- egy became an exercise in getting egy had lost its vitality—its edgi-
ecutives I work with, “If someone the analysis right, providing the an- ness—and the tremendous opportu-
asks you what you do for a living, swer, and letting someone else im- nity we have to embrace it in a new
just look them in the eye and say, plement it. That reinforced the idea way. I think other academics are be-
‘I’m an architect of organizational that strategists were a group with ginning to see the same potential.
purpose.’” specialized training. For instance, at a strategy confer-
Many business schools began to Today, Harvard doesn’t even ence in celebration of the Harvard 4

6. Business School centennial, our S+B: What does strategy work look the company. Ikea’s system of ad-
theme was “putting leadership back like when it is action-oriented? vantage, built around that idea, is
into strategy.” MONTGOMERY: Let’s say you’re a one of the company’s most impor-
business leader, and you have an idea tant resources. Anders Dahlvig, for-
S+B: When did you realize the limits for your business. That’s just the be- mer group president, put it this way:
of the analytic approach yourself? ginning. You have to articulate it, “Many competitors could try to
MONTGOMERY: A lot of it came choose to invest in it, and create the copy one or two of these things. The
through executive education, work- organizational context where people difficulty is when you try to create
ing with managers who had an op- can bring it [to life]. That means the totality of what we have.” For in-
portunity to use strategy to make a building a system of advantage—a stance, copying the low prices would
powerful difference in their compa- business model tailored to that pur- not work without copying their ap-
nies. In countless late-night conver- pose, where the pieces work in sync, proach to sourcing, their flat-pack
sations, I learned a lot about the and where the whole is more than distribution concept, the way they
challenges they faced and their aspi- the sum of the parts. Done well, it design their stores and catalogs, and
rations, and I saw what happened to
companies where no one stepped up.
The existentialist philosopher Jean- “Creativity isn’t considered very
Paul Sartre wrote about the “courage
to choose,” and understood that important in the culture that has
choosing isn’t just an intellectual
thing; it takes guts.
grown up around strategy. That
Strategy books don’t talk about has to change.”
that. They also rarely talk about
how to get others involved, or how
to serve as a champion of the pro- turns a concept into an animating their Scandinavian furniture de-
cess. Thomas Saporito, the coauthor idea: A clear view of what your com- sign—“which is not easy,” he says,
of Inside CEO Succession: The Essen- pany will bring to the world, why it “without a Scandinavian heritage.”
tial Guide to Leadership Transition will matter, and how you will do it.
[Wiley, 2012], has written about A lot of those hows will be deter- S+B: Ikea has essentially one busi-
CEOs who fail because they know mined by others throughout the or- ness. Can a multi-business, diversi-
thought leader
their strategy is correct, and they as- ganization, but that can’t happen fied company also be built around an
sume that’s enough to overcome any unless there’s clarity at the core. animating idea?
lack of buy-in. He reminds them Look at a business like Ikea, MONTGOMERY: Certainly. One of
that “executives don’t get paid to be which I wrote about in The Strate- my favorite examples comes from
right. They get paid to be effective.” gist. The founder, Ingvar Kamprad, Apple. In 2001, when Steve Jobs had
In working with leaders, I also stated his animating idea back in the only been back at the company for a
realized how vitally important cre- 1940s. They would offer a line of couple of years as CEO, he gave a
ativity is in strategy. It takes the practical, well-designed furnishings presentation at the Macworld Expo
strategy+business issue 70
whole brain—intuition and analytic at prices so low everyone could af- in which he talked about the three
skills—to do it well. But creativity ford them. When you walk into an ages of the PC. First came the age of
isn’t considered very important in Ikea store, every detail goes back to productivity, then came the age of
the culture that has grown up that idea. It’s not in a document on a the Internet, and now would be the
5 around strategy. That has to change. desk; it’s the energy that gives life to age of the digital hub. He talked

7. about MP3 players, cell phones, and you dive into that story, you can see not a matter of immaculate concep-
digital cameras, which at the time that his victories were hard won. I’m tion, where you get a single answer
accounted for only 15 percent of all trying to get people excited about and forever rule out other options.
camera sales, but, “in a couple of being strategists and to see why it’s a As a business, you operate in a com-
years,” he said, “it will be 50 per- distinctive way that they as leaders plex system of other companies in
cent.” Going forward, Apple would can add value to their businesses. which any advantage is fragile. Even
add value to a host of digital devices, I’m also trying to help them under- Steve Jobs embellished and subtract-
and be the company whose comput- stand that strategy is far more than ed as time went on. You need to
ers would tie them all together. an idea. There’s a conundrum you think about your strategy as an
Some people argue that a strat- sometimes hear in business school: open, living thing. You start out by
egy is understood only in hindsight, “Would you rather have a brilliant, defining who you are as a company.
retrospectively trying to make sense fully worked-out strategy and poor But then you try it out, and discover
of a group of haphazard, reactive execution, or a half-baked strategy that it’s not working so well, so you
moves. But here’s a case where, when well executed?” The point is sup- adjust it.
the stock price was still very low, posed to be that good execution is For example, we teach David
Steve Jobs laid out his animating preferable every time. At least it gets Yoffie’s case on the Gucci Group.
idea in public, in advance. When you some results. But, at root, it’s a The company hit the skids in the
Apple came out with iTunes, the vacuous question. How can you im- 1980s, when counterfeit products
iPod, and the Apple Store, it all plement the hell out of something if and an undisciplined licensing strat-
made sense in light of that idea. you don’t know what you’re trying egy nearly destroyed the brand.
to accomplish? Maurizio Gucci, grandson of the
thought leader
thought leader
S+B: In The Strategist you write that I can understand that you founder, stepped in and tried to re-
people respond to this story by say- might be tempted to favor execution position the company, but custom-
ing, “Sure, but I’m not a genius like because you don’t really know if ers balked and were slow to come
Steve Jobs.” Does a good strategist your strategy will succeed. If your back. A new CEO, Domenico De
have to be a genius? strategy says you should take dra- Sole, was hired in 1993 to pick up
MONTGOMERY: Jobs is widely matic, disruptive risks, do you really the pieces. De Sole forged a new
praised as a genius today, but one of dare to stand with it and keep sup- purpose built around providing
the things I appreciate most about porting it? But frankly, a lot of busi- fashion-forward clothing at good
him is his failures—the Lisa com- nesses face more pedestrian choices, value, and rebuilt every activity in
puter at Apple and the ego-busting with much less risk—and they’re the company to align with it. Did
demise at NeXT, the startup Jobs still not living deliberately, and are Gucci survive? Yes. Did it thrive?
founded when he was ousted from still flying by the seat of their pants. Yes. But it was a different company
an operating role at Apple. When More importantly, strategy is than it had been in its former hey- 6

8. day, a company that mattered for a
different reason.
Similarly, when Ingvar Kam-
prad started out, he was forced to
leave Sweden. The existing Swedish
retailers didn’t like his low prices
and put pressure on local manufac- what’s being done, but why. He or develop the search criteria for an in-
turers to refuse to supply him. In she understands that the quality of coming chief executive, and I always
fear that he’d lose the whole busi- execution begins there. No matter underscore the need to marry the
ness, he went to Poland in search of how successful an operator or execu- ability to conceptualize with the
new suppliers; their prices proved to tor you are, no matter how good ability to translate those concepts
make not just a difference in degree, your product innovation or manu- into action. Generally, I’d look for
but a difference in kind. In other facturing processes are, if your com- people who have transformed a busi-
words, this wasn’t just an incremen- pany doesn’t have a meaningful dis- ness—redefined what it was and
tal shift in one factor—it led Ikea tinction, you won’t be effective; and why it mattered, rebuilt the business
into a completely different business if you can’t move it forward, your model, and delivered. To lead, you
model. Kamprad’s strategy devel- company will stagnate. need to be able to do more than just
oped because he was open to rede- You learn those skills over time. clean up operations or coast on an
fining the business. Robert Katz, who wrote a classic ar- existing path.
ticle called “Skills of an Effective And I’ve worked with enough
S+B: So the point of a strategy is Administrator” [Harvard Business CEOs to know that they need to be
to keep improving your animating Review, September 1974], said that able to make meaning for an organi-
idea, and to keep building your own when you start your career, to suc- zation, to connect the efforts of ev-
capacity to develop and execute it. ceed, you need a functional skill: eryone in it with a purpose that really
MONTGOMERY: Yes, usually that’s For example, you need to be good at matters to some set of customers.
true. Isn’t that preferable to the di- accounting, engineering, or HR. At
chotomy we’ve been talking about, the next level up, you need to be S+B: What is the future of strategy
between conception and execution? good with people. And at the very education?
Isn’t it better than being just the top, you need conceptual skills. MONTGOMERY: Thinking about the
caretaker of a plan? Isn’t it a much Years later, someone asked him if he cultural connections among busi-
better insight to pass on to the other still agreed with that statement, and ness leaders as an ecosystem, we
managers in your company, who he said he was even more fervent want to create an atmosphere where
could be developing their strategic about it now. But he thought that a new type of conversation can be
perspective along with you? people either had those skills by the held—not just in a university class
One must also acknowledge, time they were teenagers, or they or in a management consulting firm
though, that sometimes the animat- would never have them. engagement, but among leaders in
thought leader
ing idea itself has run its course and I don’t agree with that part of it. general. We want to set up the kind
more radical action is necessary. The I think those skills can be developed of conversation that opens the win-
question remains the same: Why later in life. But I do agree that such dow to new strategic possibilities
does the world need this company? skills are the key to becoming an ar- and allows people to move a com-
chitect—or, better yet, a steward— pany in a new direction.
The Education of a Strategist of organizational purpose. As it hap- One of our students, Yegs Ra-
pens, I’ve been at the boardroom miah, is an executive at Santam, the
S+B: If you could spend time with a table with Bob Katz, and he has in- largest short-term insurance compa-
strategy+business issue 70
group of prospective chief execu- credible conceptual skills himself. ny in South Africa. Santam operates
tives, could you tell the strategists But he also understands that they in a category where there is little
from the caretakers? create value only when they’re inti- differentiation, with high levels of
MONTGOMERY: Yes. A leader who is mately linked to action. commoditization, rampant price
7 a strategist has clarity not only about I am sometimes asked to help competition, and a race to the bot-

9. tom that has been threatening the series of ads. In one of them, he nesburg Children’s Home.
profitability of the industry. More- stands in a restaurant, with a bar- Santam’s challenge to Nando’s
over, Santam had been in the game tender behind him mixing drinks, took South Africa by storm. The ad
for 95 years; it was perceived as old- moving in and out of the frame. He got more than 250,000 hits on You-
school, conservative, and expensive, reminds the audience how easy it is Tube, and Santam’s name is now
mainly serving the country’s older to wear blinders and overlook things everywhere, as an example of a com-
white population. To ensure future that are right in front of you. If you pany that is humane, progressive,
success, Santam had to tap into go for the cheapest home insurance, contemporary, and accessible to a
growing group of customers. The
campaign reinvented the brand and,
“Nobody could beat Ford at his own with that, the business.
That’s strategy. It’s not unlike
game, but Sloan reinvented the auto what Steve Jobs did for Apple, or
company. A really good strategy what Alfred Sloan did for General
Motors when he first went up against
revitalizes the company.” Henry Ford. Nobody could beat
Ford at his own game, but Sloan re-
invented the auto company. A really
the growth market—it had to ap- you might miss an important detail. good strategy doesn’t happen on the
peal to people of all races and ages “What if I told you,” he concludes, margin; it doesn’t simply perpetuate
and extend its reach into the grow- “that Floyd’s uniform has changed an industry game that is mature and
ing middle class. four times while I’ve been talking?” may be decaying.
Yegs led a process to redefine The ad caught on, and people want- A really good strategy revitaliz-
the brand positioning and the per- ed to watch it carefully to see where es the company, and to do that, you
sonality, refresh the logo and the the bartender’s outfit changed. It need to assemble a group of people
visual identity, and develop an won several accolades, including a who have the courage to confront
integrated communication and mar- Silver Clio award as well as a Bronze business at its roots. You need people
keting campaign. She realized that Lion in Cannes. who can say, in effect, “Strategy is
in order to challenge accepted Nando’s, a large South African dead. But long live strategy.” +
norms, Santam would have to rede- fast-food chain renowned for their Reprint No. 00163
thought leader
thought leader
fine the short-term insurance cate- satirical advertising, then parodied
gory. She looked for ways to change the ad with one of their own, steal-
the conversation about insurance ing the concept. Instead of ignoring
from its being trivial and dispens- it, or threatening to sue, Yegs got the
able, cheap, and a little bit nasty, to same agency to create a response.
its being important and meaningful, “Under normal circumstances we’d
with enduring value and substance. be upset, but frankly we’re flattered,”
This meant inspiring South Afri- said a Kingsley-like narrator in the
cans to take the issues of managing new ad. Then he made a demand:
risk and preparing for their future Santam would “overlook the indis-
more seriously. cretion” if Nando’s delivered a pack-
Yegs hired Oscar-winning actor age of food—a list of dishes from
Sir Ben Kingsley to narrate a new the Nando’s menu—to the Johan- 8

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