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Java
vs
C/C++
Cliff Click
www.azulsystems.com/blogs
Java vs C/C++
●

"I declare a Flamewar!!!!"
●

Lots of noise & heat

●

Not many facts

●

Lots of obvious mistakes being made

●

Situation is more subtle than expected

●

This is my attempt to clarify the situation
C/C++ Beats Java
●

Very small footprint – under 300KB
●

●

Very deterministic or fast (re)boot times –
●

●

e.g. engine controllers, pacemakers

Very big problems: Fortran optimizations
●

●

e.g. Embedded controllers, cars, clocks

Array reshaping & tiling for cache

Value types - Complex, Point
●

e.g. Overhead costs of 1b objects

●

vs array-of-doubles
C/C++ Beats Java
●

Direct Machine Access
●

e.g. OS's (special ops, registers), device drivers
–

Hard to do in Java (i.e. JavaOS effort)

●
●

●

AAA Games / First Person Shooter Games
Maxine Java-in-Java might be a counter-example

Direct Code-Generation
●

gnu "asm"

●

Write bits to buffer & exec
–

●

'sort' inner loop key-compare

Interpreters
C++ Beats Java
●

Destructors vs finalizers
●

Destructors are reliable out-of-language cleanup

●

Finalizers will "eventually" run
–
–

●

But maybe after running out of e.g. file handles
So weird force-GC-cycle hooks to force cleanup

Destructors vs & try/finally
●

Destructors are reliable exit-scope action

●

try/finally requires adding explicit exit-scope-action
–
–

For each new enter-scope-action
Maintenance mess
Java Beats C/C++
●

Most Programs - profiling pays off
●
●

All JIT systems profile at least some

●

●

But nobody bothers for C/C++, too hard
More profiling added as systems mature

Very Large Programs >1MLOC
●

Large program tool chain is better

●

A lot more 1MLOC Java apps than C
Java Beats C/C++
●

GC is easier to get right than malloc/free
●
●

●

Faster time-to-market
Why so many variations on Regions, Arenas,
Resource Areas? Basically hand-rolled GC...

GC is efficient
●
●

●

Parallel, concurrent
Good locality, fragmentation

GC allows concurrent algorithms
●

Trivially track shared memory lifetimes

●

Fundamental change, can't "fake it"
Java Beats C/C++
●

Single CPU speed stalled
●

●

Bigger problem => parallel solution

Better multi-threading support
●

Real Memory Model - synchronized, volatile

●

Threads are built-in

●

Large multi-threaded library base
–

●

●

JDK Concurrent Collections

GC vs concurrent malloc/free

Tools for parallel coding, debugging
Libraries
●

Vast Java Library collection
●

●

Can COTS many many problems

Downside: too many 3rd party libraries
●
●

C Mentality: build before download

●

Too many layers of Java crap

●

●

Java Mentality: download from web, don't build

Nobody knows what's going on

Application plagued by failures
no one understands
Claims C-beats-Java
But I Dont Think So
●

Most modest sized programs
●

●

Fast enough is fast enough

16bit chars vs 8bit chars
●
●

●

Lots of noise here (and lots of optimizations)
Rarely makes a difference in practice

Raw small benchmark speed
●

Usually I don't care
–

●

"C gets more BogoMips so it's better!"

OR broken testing methodology
–

"C makes a better WebServer because printf is faster!"
Common Flaws
When Comparing
●

No Warmup
●
●

●

Only interesting for quick-reboot, e.g. Pacemakers
Most apps run for minutes to days

Basic timing errors
●
●

●

API reports in nanos
OS rounds to millis (or 10's of millis)

Caching Effects
●

CPU caches, OS-level, disk & network

●

DB cache, JIT/JVM level

vs
Common Flaws
When Comparing
●

Basic Broken Statistics
●

Run-once-and-report

●

No averages, std-devs

●

Throwing out "outliers"

●

Not accounting for "compile plan"
–
–

●

"Statistically rigorous Java performance evaluation"
"Producing wrong data without doing anything obviously
wrong!"

Flags, version-numbers, env-factors all matter
●

"java" not same as "java -client" or "java -server"

●

Some JDK versions have 30% faster XML parsing
Common Flaws
When Comparing
●

Varying Datasets or Constant-time workloads
●

●

Have seen cycles-per-work-unit vary by 10x

Claiming X but testing Y
●
●

SpecJBB: claims middleware test but is GC test

●

●

209_db: claims DB test but is shell-sort test
Lots more here

Not comparing same program
●

e.g. Debian language shootout
–

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org
Commonly Mentioned
Non-Issues
●

Stack Allocation "Does So" beat GC
●

●

Does Not. You got evidence?
I got evidence of non-issue...

Java has lots of casts
●

But they are basically free
–

●

Virtual & Interface calls are slow
●

●

load/compare/branch, roughly 1 clock

And basically never taken (inline-cache)

C# curious? I dunno, I don't track Microsoft
Java-vs-C Examples
●

Examples limited to what I can fit on slides

●

In-Real-Life never get apples-to-apples

●

Programs either very small

●

Or new re-implementation
●

●

Generally better written 2nd go-round

Or extremely bad (mis)use of language features
Example: String Hash
●

Java tied vs GCC -O2
int h=0;
for( int i=0; i<len; i++ )
h = 31*h+str[i];
return h;
Here I ran it on a new X86 for 100 million loops:
> a.out
100000000
100000000 hashes in 5.636 secs
> java str_hash 100000000
100000000 hashes in 5.745 secs

●

Key is loop unrolling
●

(i.e. JITs do all major compiler optimizations)
Sieve of Erathosthenes
●

Again tied

bool *sieve = new bool[max];
for (int i=0; i<max; i++) sieve[i] = true;
sieve[0] = sieve[1] = false;
int lim = (int)sqrt(max);
for (int n=2; n<lim; n++) {
if (sieve[n]) {
for (int j=2*n; j<max; j+=n)
sieve[j] = false;
}
}

I computed the primes up to 100million:
> a.out
100000000
100000000 primes in 1.568 secs
> java sieve 100000000
100000000 primes in 1.548 secs
Silly Example
●

Silly Example to Make a Point
int sum=0;
for (int i = 0; i < max; i++)
sum += x.val(); // virtual call
return sum;
Here I run it on the same X86:
> a.out
1000000000 0
1000000000 adds in 2.657 secs
> java vcall 1000000000 0
1000000000 adds in 0.0 secs

●

Zounds! Java is "infinitely" faster than C
??? what happened here ???
Silly Example Explained
●

Command-line flag picks 1 of 2 classes for 'x'

●

Type profiling at Runtime
●

Only 1 type loaded for 'x.val()' call
–

●

JIT makes the virtual call static, then inlines
–

●

"for( int i=0; i<max; i++ ) { sum += 7/*x.val*/; }"

Once inlined, JIT optimizes loop away
–

●

"int val() { return 7; }"

"sum += max*7;"

True virtual call at static compile-time
●

No chance for a static compiler to optimize
Why Silly Example Matters
●

Only 1 implementing class for interface

●

Common case for large Java programs
●

Single-implementor interfaces abound

●

Library calls with a zillion options
–

●

But only a single option choosen, etc

Can see 100+ classes collapsed this way
–

10K call-sites optimized, 1M calls/sec optimized

●

Major Optimization not possible without JIT'ing

●

Lots more cool JIT tricks to come...
Other Stuff That Matters
●

Other Things Also Matter
●

Existing infrastructure, libraries, time-to-market

●

Programmer training, mind set
–

Lots of Java programmers Out There

●
●

●

Legal issues – open source or man-rating
Reliability, stability, scalability

JVMs enabling new languages
●

Clojure, Scala, JRuby, Jython, many more

●

Much faster time-to-market
Summary
●

My Language is Faster!!!
●

Except when it's not

●

Ummm.... "fast" is not well-defined...
–

●

Other-things-matter more in many domains
●

●

MOOPS/sec? Faster than thy competitor?
Faster-to-market? Fits in my wrist watch?

If you got 500 X programmers, maybe should use X?

Each language is a clear winner
in some domains, neither going away soon
●

e.g. still room for trains in our auto-dominated world
Summary
●

Internet is a Great Amplifier
●

●

Of both the Good, the Bad AND the Ugly

Real issue: Need Sane Discourse
●

Lots of Screaming & Flames
–
–

●

People with strong opinions, different vested interests,
different experiences & goals
e.g. Do we even agree on what "faster" means?

Lots of Bad Science
–
–

Broken & missing statistical evidence
Misapplied testing, testing unrelated stuff
Summary
●

When the noise exceeds communication levels...
●
●

●

Back up, clarify, acknowlege each side has strengths
Chill out, think it through

Recognize a lack-of-evidence for what it is
●
●

●

yelling louder about what you do know doesn't help
Good testing helps (and bad testing hurts)

Realize "faster" has different meanings
–
–
–

Junior Engineer thinks "faster than the competition"
Manager thinks "faster to market"
Senior Engineer thinks "that brick wall is approaching fast!"
Summary

It Depends.

Cliff Click
http://www.azulsystems.com/blogs

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Java vs. C/C++

  • 2. Java vs C/C++ ● "I declare a Flamewar!!!!" ● Lots of noise & heat ● Not many facts ● Lots of obvious mistakes being made ● Situation is more subtle than expected ● This is my attempt to clarify the situation
  • 3. C/C++ Beats Java ● Very small footprint – under 300KB ● ● Very deterministic or fast (re)boot times – ● ● e.g. engine controllers, pacemakers Very big problems: Fortran optimizations ● ● e.g. Embedded controllers, cars, clocks Array reshaping & tiling for cache Value types - Complex, Point ● e.g. Overhead costs of 1b objects ● vs array-of-doubles
  • 4. C/C++ Beats Java ● Direct Machine Access ● e.g. OS's (special ops, registers), device drivers – Hard to do in Java (i.e. JavaOS effort) ● ● ● AAA Games / First Person Shooter Games Maxine Java-in-Java might be a counter-example Direct Code-Generation ● gnu "asm" ● Write bits to buffer & exec – ● 'sort' inner loop key-compare Interpreters
  • 5. C++ Beats Java ● Destructors vs finalizers ● Destructors are reliable out-of-language cleanup ● Finalizers will "eventually" run – – ● But maybe after running out of e.g. file handles So weird force-GC-cycle hooks to force cleanup Destructors vs & try/finally ● Destructors are reliable exit-scope action ● try/finally requires adding explicit exit-scope-action – – For each new enter-scope-action Maintenance mess
  • 6. Java Beats C/C++ ● Most Programs - profiling pays off ● ● All JIT systems profile at least some ● ● But nobody bothers for C/C++, too hard More profiling added as systems mature Very Large Programs >1MLOC ● Large program tool chain is better ● A lot more 1MLOC Java apps than C
  • 7. Java Beats C/C++ ● GC is easier to get right than malloc/free ● ● ● Faster time-to-market Why so many variations on Regions, Arenas, Resource Areas? Basically hand-rolled GC... GC is efficient ● ● ● Parallel, concurrent Good locality, fragmentation GC allows concurrent algorithms ● Trivially track shared memory lifetimes ● Fundamental change, can't "fake it"
  • 8. Java Beats C/C++ ● Single CPU speed stalled ● ● Bigger problem => parallel solution Better multi-threading support ● Real Memory Model - synchronized, volatile ● Threads are built-in ● Large multi-threaded library base – ● ● JDK Concurrent Collections GC vs concurrent malloc/free Tools for parallel coding, debugging
  • 9. Libraries ● Vast Java Library collection ● ● Can COTS many many problems Downside: too many 3rd party libraries ● ● C Mentality: build before download ● Too many layers of Java crap ● ● Java Mentality: download from web, don't build Nobody knows what's going on Application plagued by failures no one understands
  • 10. Claims C-beats-Java But I Dont Think So ● Most modest sized programs ● ● Fast enough is fast enough 16bit chars vs 8bit chars ● ● ● Lots of noise here (and lots of optimizations) Rarely makes a difference in practice Raw small benchmark speed ● Usually I don't care – ● "C gets more BogoMips so it's better!" OR broken testing methodology – "C makes a better WebServer because printf is faster!"
  • 11. Common Flaws When Comparing ● No Warmup ● ● ● Only interesting for quick-reboot, e.g. Pacemakers Most apps run for minutes to days Basic timing errors ● ● ● API reports in nanos OS rounds to millis (or 10's of millis) Caching Effects ● CPU caches, OS-level, disk & network ● DB cache, JIT/JVM level vs
  • 12. Common Flaws When Comparing ● Basic Broken Statistics ● Run-once-and-report ● No averages, std-devs ● Throwing out "outliers" ● Not accounting for "compile plan" – – ● "Statistically rigorous Java performance evaluation" "Producing wrong data without doing anything obviously wrong!" Flags, version-numbers, env-factors all matter ● "java" not same as "java -client" or "java -server" ● Some JDK versions have 30% faster XML parsing
  • 13. Common Flaws When Comparing ● Varying Datasets or Constant-time workloads ● ● Have seen cycles-per-work-unit vary by 10x Claiming X but testing Y ● ● SpecJBB: claims middleware test but is GC test ● ● 209_db: claims DB test but is shell-sort test Lots more here Not comparing same program ● e.g. Debian language shootout – http://shootout.alioth.debian.org
  • 14. Commonly Mentioned Non-Issues ● Stack Allocation "Does So" beat GC ● ● Does Not. You got evidence? I got evidence of non-issue... Java has lots of casts ● But they are basically free – ● Virtual & Interface calls are slow ● ● load/compare/branch, roughly 1 clock And basically never taken (inline-cache) C# curious? I dunno, I don't track Microsoft
  • 15. Java-vs-C Examples ● Examples limited to what I can fit on slides ● In-Real-Life never get apples-to-apples ● Programs either very small ● Or new re-implementation ● ● Generally better written 2nd go-round Or extremely bad (mis)use of language features
  • 16. Example: String Hash ● Java tied vs GCC -O2 int h=0; for( int i=0; i<len; i++ ) h = 31*h+str[i]; return h; Here I ran it on a new X86 for 100 million loops: > a.out 100000000 100000000 hashes in 5.636 secs > java str_hash 100000000 100000000 hashes in 5.745 secs ● Key is loop unrolling ● (i.e. JITs do all major compiler optimizations)
  • 17. Sieve of Erathosthenes ● Again tied bool *sieve = new bool[max]; for (int i=0; i<max; i++) sieve[i] = true; sieve[0] = sieve[1] = false; int lim = (int)sqrt(max); for (int n=2; n<lim; n++) { if (sieve[n]) { for (int j=2*n; j<max; j+=n) sieve[j] = false; } } I computed the primes up to 100million: > a.out 100000000 100000000 primes in 1.568 secs > java sieve 100000000 100000000 primes in 1.548 secs
  • 18. Silly Example ● Silly Example to Make a Point int sum=0; for (int i = 0; i < max; i++) sum += x.val(); // virtual call return sum; Here I run it on the same X86: > a.out 1000000000 0 1000000000 adds in 2.657 secs > java vcall 1000000000 0 1000000000 adds in 0.0 secs ● Zounds! Java is "infinitely" faster than C ??? what happened here ???
  • 19. Silly Example Explained ● Command-line flag picks 1 of 2 classes for 'x' ● Type profiling at Runtime ● Only 1 type loaded for 'x.val()' call – ● JIT makes the virtual call static, then inlines – ● "for( int i=0; i<max; i++ ) { sum += 7/*x.val*/; }" Once inlined, JIT optimizes loop away – ● "int val() { return 7; }" "sum += max*7;" True virtual call at static compile-time ● No chance for a static compiler to optimize
  • 20. Why Silly Example Matters ● Only 1 implementing class for interface ● Common case for large Java programs ● Single-implementor interfaces abound ● Library calls with a zillion options – ● But only a single option choosen, etc Can see 100+ classes collapsed this way – 10K call-sites optimized, 1M calls/sec optimized ● Major Optimization not possible without JIT'ing ● Lots more cool JIT tricks to come...
  • 21. Other Stuff That Matters ● Other Things Also Matter ● Existing infrastructure, libraries, time-to-market ● Programmer training, mind set – Lots of Java programmers Out There ● ● ● Legal issues – open source or man-rating Reliability, stability, scalability JVMs enabling new languages ● Clojure, Scala, JRuby, Jython, many more ● Much faster time-to-market
  • 22. Summary ● My Language is Faster!!! ● Except when it's not ● Ummm.... "fast" is not well-defined... – ● Other-things-matter more in many domains ● ● MOOPS/sec? Faster than thy competitor? Faster-to-market? Fits in my wrist watch? If you got 500 X programmers, maybe should use X? Each language is a clear winner in some domains, neither going away soon ● e.g. still room for trains in our auto-dominated world
  • 23. Summary ● Internet is a Great Amplifier ● ● Of both the Good, the Bad AND the Ugly Real issue: Need Sane Discourse ● Lots of Screaming & Flames – – ● People with strong opinions, different vested interests, different experiences & goals e.g. Do we even agree on what "faster" means? Lots of Bad Science – – Broken & missing statistical evidence Misapplied testing, testing unrelated stuff
  • 24. Summary ● When the noise exceeds communication levels... ● ● ● Back up, clarify, acknowlege each side has strengths Chill out, think it through Recognize a lack-of-evidence for what it is ● ● ● yelling louder about what you do know doesn't help Good testing helps (and bad testing hurts) Realize "faster" has different meanings – – – Junior Engineer thinks "faster than the competition" Manager thinks "faster to market" Senior Engineer thinks "that brick wall is approaching fast!"