Jim Alvino Interview of Dr Amit Goswami Part 2 Transcript

Probing Deeper into the Nature and Properties
of Quantum Physics with Dr. Amit Goswami –
October 2, 2014
Dr. Amit Goswami Part 2 Page 1 of 24
Dr. Jim Alvino: Welcome, Amit. You just got back from Brazil, what was all that about?
On the Subject of Love
Dr. Amit Goswami: I was attending a conference, giving a talk and a workshop there. The
subject was Quantum Health. The Brazilians are a little ahead of us
North Americans. They already have embraced quantum physics in a
rather deep way. I have been doing quantum activism in Brazil since
2007. The conference really blew me away in such certain ways, because
I spoke about love, which I do often times, that doesn’t surprise me
because I know what I think is the essence of our transformation, but I
was surprised by the fact that most of the presenters there are not
talking about love in the way that quantum physics introduces love.
I had the same experience in London back in August when again a
conference was arranged on consciousness, and the main speaker to my
surprise spoke about love. Remember love is not new in the world of
new age. The Beatles introduced the famous line, “All We Need Is Love,”
but at that time in the ‘60s our interpretation of love was very shallow, it
meant physical love mostly and all it meant was… anybody should have
sex with anybody else, this kind of thing.
Now people have a better understanding of love as a quantum thing.
What does that mean? That means you explore love creatively. You can
start with romantic love, nothing wrong with romantic love, by the way,
but with romantic love… do you change from partner to partner as you
did in the ‘60s, or do we grow up and really explore love deeply? This is
the question that I have been asking in my own life and professionally
through quantum physics, and we have some great answers.
These new answers, creativity of love, are emphasized in the book
Quantum Creativity, and I emphasize it in all my talks and presentations.
I’m finding that speaker after speaker has already been doing the same
thing, which is wonderful because now we can really get into the
exploration of unconditional love and love beyond romantic love and [do
so] creatively. It’s a good introduction to creativity for many of our
listeners, many of our people who are struggling with how to love. The
answer to creativity and love is the same one…

October 2, 2014
Dr. Alvino: Indeed, when you speak of unconditional love, you’re speaking of the
highest love, and in many traditions they call that love God, in fact, but it
doesn’t surprise me, it doesn’t surprise me that as you’re going around
the world, you’re finding … more and more people elsewhere than in the
United States speaking about love. I do think that there are some other
countries that are generally ahead of us in certain concepts.
On the Subject of Alternative Medicine
I think you make the case in your book too that with alternative
medicine, for example… there would not be a foundation for alternative
medicine or alternative wellness and so forth apart from quantum
physics.
Dr. Goswami: Yes, exactly.
Dr. Alvino: The quantum view of the connectedness of everything… allopathic
medicine, it seems to me, is fundamentally based on separateness
derived from the materialistic science, wouldn’t you say?
Dr. Goswami: Yes, and based most incompletely on the idea that we are just a physical
body, so what it does, it gives us very little avenue for interacting with
our own health, and this is really a ridiculous idea. I have this body and
then I cannot do anything about it. The body is just a [mechanism] on its
own, and whatever I do is irrelevant because the body has as its own
way, I [consciousness] don’t exist. If they’re a little bit kind then they will
say, “Well, I exist but that’s an epiphenomenon, I don’t have any causal
power, so I exist but it means nothing,” which is actually the same thing.
Some of us are good readers of machines… those people are called the
doctors. They read the machines better because they are trained that
way so they learn how to interpret the machines, and they tell us what is
wrong with this and we just follow it and usually it means drugs.
Sometimes if it is cancer it can mean radiation and sometimes it can
involve surgery, so those are the three ways: cut, burn, and drugs. Those
are the three ways that we treat ourselves.
Quantum physics recognizes consciousness, and as soon as it does than it
says that, “Look, there’s an enormous role played by your consciousness,
your belief system, your ego, how creative you are.” You can heal

October 2, 2014
yourself out practically. In this situation is a phenomenon called
quantum healing. You can indeed take a preventive meditation by
becoming aware of your physical [world]… not only your physical body
but the vital and mental [worlds] that are associated with the physical
body and brain.
If you do that and take care of this body, not only just the physical, which
is the subject of nutrition -- but that too is a bit different from the
allopathic medicine -- and then you will augment nutrition by taking care
of the vital and the mental connection... Then what you have set up for
yourself is such a preventive way of avoiding disease that you don’t need
to go through these doctors especially of the allopathic kind. If you want
to go to the doctors of the alternative kind, you’re welcome to it because
they won’t bankrupt you, they won’t charge you too much, and they will
treat you as a human being and that’s a huge bonus.
Dr. Alvino: It’s absolutely a huge bonus. I’m astounded every time I see a
pharmaceutical company’s ad for a drug. It doesn’t matter what it
purports to cure, because what it lists as possible side effects can kill you.
How do you heal with something that is fundamentally a poison or that
can throw your body into such a shock that the drug is worse than if you
didn’t take it? How can you heal?
Dr. Goswami: Exactly. We live in a very peculiar age where the belief is that we will
keep you alive as long as you wish but we can’t take care of your
suffering. You’ll suffer more but that’s the way it is, you live. Live, but
the life is not worth living anymore, but forget that part, because they are
still keeping you alive as a vegetable, but that’s the way it is.
Dr. Alvino: We’ve come to accept on multiple levels that suffering is either
inevitable, or if you go to the extreme, there’ll be some who will actually
say suffering is good [often in the spiritual realm]. It’s a whole different
model, it’s an absurd view.
On the Subject of Education
Dr. Goswami: We have the same absurd view for our education too. We educate, we
spend all this money for educating, but instead of liberating our self from
conditioned worlds of thinking, we say that, “Look, you don’t exist, you
are a machine. You are what you are and you cannot change it. All you

October 2, 2014
can do is to cope with it, and we can give you some hint about how to
cope with it, but that’s what education is about…” So you develop this
idea that you are a machine, you have no creativity, you don’t exist, you
don’t have feelings, you don’t have things like love, [they say] “these
things are all just machine stuff that you have misinterpreted, my friend.”
Dr. Alvino: It’s amazing to me. You and I come from different cultures and different
traditions, but it’s been awhile since both of us have been in school.
However, I know when I was there creativity -- certainly not quantum
creativity -- but creativity, however, you define it was not emphasized. It
was all about locking into the single right answer.
That [model] may be true with certain subjects, it may be true in
mathematics, it may be true in certain areas of physics, but the deeper
creativity I think that you are teaching about in your book requires us to
have the conscious and the unconscious work together and be able to
somehow tap into that unconscious. I think you have your arms around
that more so than I do, but isn’t one of the premises of your thinking that
conscious and unconscious must work together to access the deepest
levels of our being in which we can truly be creative and access… that
place where we [can] create the life we desire?
On the Subject of Conscious and Unconscious
Dr. Goswami: Exactly, so the point is that if all of the world were conscious to us, if you
are conscious of everything that goes on in the world, the world would
not be as enchanting as it is. This has to be understood at the very deep
level. It is very good thing that we are conscious -- It’s like an iceberg --
only of the little part and the most of it is really underneath, this
unconscious in us.
Because it is unconscious, therefore, we are a huge amount of
possibilities which we have not manifested yet, and because of that,
there is a huge amount of potentiality that we can explore, and therefore
our life is what the exploration is, what the living work is going on and on;
and we reincarnate again and again and explore this infinite amount of
new possibilities that exist for us to manifest.

October 2, 2014
Dr. Alvino: How do we get there? You have said somewhere, one of your books
possibly or it was in the movie that the place from which we create is a
non-ordinary state of consciousness. How do we get there?
Dr. Goswami: That’s the thing, we have to get there by what we are talking about, it’s
learning to process both consciously and unconsciously, focused doing
and relaxed being. Sometimes I summarize it by the slogan doo-be-doo-
be-doo, that jingle of Frank Sinatra’s.
Dr. Alvino: Yes, the little song. 
Dr. Goswami: It’s really true except that “do” is a little bit subtle. It’s a focused-doing.
We are doing, doing, doing all the time but very unfocused and then
nothing happens; but if we bring the focus to a question that we’re
asking -- like questions of confirmation—[for example], how to love; or a
question of physics, how to find truth, how the world works; or a
question of psychology, how does the mind work; or a question of art,
how do I paint this particular theme that is being revealed in my
consciousness. This kind of [focused questioning], that’s the first step.
The second step is that, okay, focusing is giving me ideas, imagination,
but they are just one track and I can only [consciously] do one track at a
time, so this is going to take a long time. Then the question is, okay I
have done some preparation, now let me just relax. What that relaxation
does, it takes my questions and the preparations and converts it all into a
memory that is now [presented] as unconscious possibility.
The point is that I have generated enough of them for them to interact.
They’re not separately situated in the domain outside of present time
that we call the unconscious, they are interacting possibilities, so
possibilities interact with other possibilities. When the possibilities are
not exactly incongruent, conflicting possibilities, then the interaction
becomes very thorough and it generates many new possibilities; and
that’s how creativity can become so powerful, because in the
unconscious we can explore, we can process more than one possibility at
the same time.
In fact, we can process the whole bunch of possibilities all at the same
time and see the gestalt that often is required to solve the question that
is bothering us, the creative problem that we are investigating. It is that

October 2, 2014
gestalt, the moment we discover it, it will become conscious and we’ve
got no word for it… like a jigsaw puzzle… and we say, “aha,” it becomes a
surprise.
On the Subject of Waves of Possibility
Dr. Alvino: Last time we talked about waves of possibility and you gave an example
of throwing a pebble in a pond. I asked you about the importance of
staying open or maintaining a state of incubation and you aid it was
critical. Would you please expound on that and your example.
Dr. Goswami: What we have done with our conscious thinking is to generate some
thoughts. Each of these thoughts is like a pebble in the water so it starts
a wave. It does start as a thought, and it just seems very localized but it
doesn’t stay that way. It expands as possibilities of meaning.
One thought is at a presentation of meaning in a particular way, like I ask
you about love and you say, love is being generous, love is being
vulnerable. You are just speaking one aspect of that, and that’s a
particular thought. That’s a [single] representation of the archetype of
love. Same thing for meaning, the meaning of an object that you see, like
I might be showing you a pen, and I ask what is this, and you choose the
word, “Oh, it’s a pen.”
You could also choose because pen has a sharp edge, you could also say,
“Oh, that’s something that you can poke me with.” Meaning depends
similarly on the context in which the word is put, and so this is a way of
understanding how we start with a single thought but it doesn’t stay
there, because underneath the thought is something which is non-
thought which is meaning… so it becomes a wave of different meanings
all at the same time, and then when we collapse it, then a particular
meaning will be chosen.
On the Subject of Creating My Life

October 2, 2014
Dr. Alvino: Thank you, I appreciate that clarification. Assuming we’ve reached a
really good meditative or contemplative state, perhaps that state of non-
ordinary consciousness [where we create], if the thought [and
visualization] I have is of myself as different from who or what I am
currently… might the same thing apply, does the same thing apply?
You and I have a relationship and I have a thought of myself, “Gosh, I
want to be a theoretical quantum physicist too,” and I assume that
there’s an enormous amount of preparation, enormous amount of
training and education, but I give myself that thought. Might it, can it
ripple out as that pond of waves to the point where I literally can bring
that into my reality?
Dr. Goswami: Yes and no. If you are very restricted in your thinking, and that you
cannot think beyond that, “For example, I want to be a very rich man,”
and you just have one picture of that rich man, that’s going to hurt you.
I’m not saying that it will never get you into the wave of possibility, but
depending on the pond, [and the] wave that it creates, or depending on
the throw the waves will create, [they may] stay for a while or not stay
for a while, it depends on your preparation.
What goes underneath the incubation, the unconscious processing, that
depends on the way that you prepare. If your preparation is very shallow
-- like all you want is a lot of money -- that’s one kind of preparation, but
you can also generalize the preparation by preparing more. What does
money represent? Money represents abundance. Money represents, if
it is meaningful, money represents something. Money by itself is not [the
thing].
Money represents something, and money enables something. That
enabling aspect of money, the representing aspect of money that we put
in… then we realize, “Aha, so what really we are after is not money, we
are really after these other things that money can buy for us, that money
can represent for us.” Therefore we look at those things and what are
those things? What we’re really looking at is abundance, that’s the
archetype.
On the Subject of the Archetypes

October 2, 2014
When we become more honed towards these archetypes behind our
exploration, like somebody says I want to be a theoretical quantum
physicist, but that’s not the archetype, that’s the very narrow attitude
towards science. Instead, when we say that I want to know what the
world is like, I want to know the truth of the world, so we hone onto that
archetype of truth. The stuff that is attracted to us is not the shallow
image that we have created that we want to be, but the archetype that
we want to investigate; it’s the archetypes that are attracted to us.
The people who sell these things have themselves [shallow images]…
forgive my criticism because they’re doing a good thing. Basically, it’s a
good thing to attract people’s attention to these things, and they’re
doing that, I’m very appreciative of that, but by giving shallow images for
people to investigate, they’re limiting the people. What it is really about
is creativity and creative investigation of the archetype, because it’s the
archetypes that are attracted to us.
The archetypes want us to investigate them and this is why we have the
intuitive dimension of our experience, we intuit. These archetypes are so
insistent that they come to us and we intuit… say I really want to love,
and there are times I notice something so beautiful and I pass it by. But
we really intuit that, “Look, don’t pass it by, enjoy the sunset, relax a
moment and look at it,” so that’s the attraction. The attraction is the
archetype of beauty. The attraction is the archetype of love. The
attraction is the archetype of truth.
When we recognize [the attractions] even for money, as I’ve said the
attraction is the archetype of abundance and then the creative
exploration gets the form that cannot fail.
On the Subject of Reincarnation
Dr. Alvino: Is it the case, for example, that you as a physicist, your archetype is that
of truth I believe, you want to get to the truth, you want to get to
ultimate reality; for a business person or a successful business person
that archetype might be abundance. Is this something that is almost
written in our DNA, so to speak, so that when Amit Goswami came into
being... you had propensities that were going to attract or be attracted to
or by the archetype of truth?

October 2, 2014
Dr. Goswami: Right, but it’s not in the DNA, it’s in our reincarnation. You can get DNA
afterward, you can use it as a metaphor.
Dr. Alvino: That’s how I was using it, as a metaphor, yes.
Dr. Goswami: DNA is the reality for the physical being of our self, how the physical body
is made partially is the DNA but not all of it, some of it requires other
fields that Rupert Sheldrake has named morphogenetic fields, and they’re
also coming in, so it’s a combination of DNA, morphogenetic fields, and
then mental meaning to investigate, and finally the archetypes.
How do we choose these higher aspects of whom we are, and that
requires an investigation of the phenomenon of reincarnation, so we die
and then we are reborn, but at the moment of death, we get a choice.
We choose what we investigate in our next life. The choices that we
make in the death bed, if we learn to make them consciously, that really
can be very, very helpful.
If we don’t make them in a conscious way -- that’s what most of us do --
then we have to suffer from many incarnations until we learn to be
conscious and start choosing. But most people who are into creativity,
we just know, the investigations have shown that they have chosen and
they call it their Dharma in Sanskrit… you are prepared for it. You chose
your life, you chose your propensities of life like your DNA, like the
meanings, like your archetypes… Therefore, certain archetypes you want
and those archetypes likewise are attracted to you.
The archetypes that are attracted to you are giving you a hint that, look
you chose me, I’m attracted to you because you chose me.
Dr. Alvino: That’s a good way to frame it particularly when you bring in the
propensities and you bring in [a particular incarnation and how I chose
my predominant archetype(s)]. That’s fascinating.
One of the blocks it seems that you spoke about in your book, the blocks
to really reaching and fulfilling fundamental creativity, is having a
“cluttered unconscious” or an unconscious that’s all plotted out I think
you say. Such clutter blocks us from creating something new and this
includes things that are left undone on a daily basis that drain us
energetically.

October 2, 2014
Dr. Goswami: I think there was some real creativity, ingenuity, insight involved… a
couple of decades ago people started talking about closure, how to get
closure. That’s a good word because this is what we do. During the day,
we keep a lot of residue that we don’t close up, and because we don’t
close them up they makes us anxious. So in our dreams when we’re
unconscious we are always processing this non-closed stuff and cluttering
up our unconscious with trivia. Most things that we don’t close, they’re
really trivial but because we don’t close them, we are slightly anxious
about them, and they take up the space in the unconscious
unnecessarily, and drain our creative talent.
What we should do is to a) start closing, and b) if we can, just not worry
so much about the trivia, really this trivial pursuit … enough is enough,
right?
Dr. Alvino: Yes indeed.
On the Subject of [Self-] Forgiveness
One of the things that you bring up that is not so trivial that requires
closure is self-forgiveness, that if we cannot do that we are locked into
the past, we’re locked into an identity which is going to keep repeating
and attracting to ourselves over and over again most likely the things we
don’t want.
Dr. Goswami: It’s very unfortunate thing. In the east, we have a phenomenon called
blaming others because we don’t learn to take responsibility. In the west,
we do better in terms of responsibility because after all we are thrown
out of the house at the age of 18, so we learn to be a little bit
responsible, but on the other hand, we suffer from this other side of
blame which is guilt. We blame ourselves when we’re not keeping up
with what we think our responsibility extends.
This is what is meant in spiritual traditions by saying that God is merciful,
God forgives. Who is God? God is your inner, deeper self, God is your
inner, deeper consciousness, so if God forgives then why don’t you
forgive? It is such a waste of time. A little bit of guilt is good because it’s a
reminder that you failed again, but you will fail again and again and again
before you are successful because this stuff is hard. What do you do? You
forgive and you start again.

October 2, 2014
What Is The Number One Block?
Dr. Alvino: You pick up. You fail forward as you step. I know this is a very critical
element that you talked about in the book, but if you had to put your
finger on the number one thing that keeps us stuck, that keeps us
repeating the same things over and over again, attracting the same things
over and over again, what would that be?
Dr. Goswami: Lots of things but mainly it’s the preoccupation with our persona. The
images take over and the self-images that we create that creates our
persona needed for pleasing other people… because you are pleasing the
current world view or what we interpret as the current world view. We
want to please everybody in our environment but that’s not the way
because we are doing that, we are not becoming individual. We are
refusing to become individual. We’re just following this grid or that grid
and in that, which is our biggest enemy to creativity. [Becoming an]
individual should be engrained in every one of us from the beginning.
Our liberal education used to do that at one point. When Jefferson
established the University of Virginia, this is the kind of university he
wanted to create, so he gets tremendous credit as an educator rather
than as a president, but we lost that vision. Now, liberal education has
become education of materialism, and therefore again we are teaching
people wisdom which is propagated and Dharma propagated by a few
physicists and scientists. It is not what we should explore.
Yet, our kids just … are told some things and they start believing it and
they limit themselves and this becomes a huge, huge barrier against
creativity. Because once you believe that you are a machine, you are not
creative, your creativity is limited to what a machine can do, then you’re
really just thinking like a machine way and this is what we do today…
On the Subject of Conditioning
Dr. Alvino: In fact I think the limit of creativity or that relates also to the whole
notion of a machine model refers to your concept of downward
causation because as you ask how do you solve the quantum
measurement problem, no material interaction, let’s call it no gears, no
set of gears interacting in a machine can ever convert possibility into
actuality.

October 2, 2014
Dr. Goswami: Quantum physics says it’s impossible anyway, but the problem is that we
do have conditioning. The phenomenon… we use the quantum
propensity by repetition of a particular response. What happens is that
we become conditioned in certain responses. Then those responses we
can choose and the law of universe is that the equations are such that
probabilistically we are able to choose them, although not always, but
the probability of a creative response become smaller and smaller and
smaller as we become more and more conditioned.
In this way, the way that we are built, the conditioning is something that
is also part of the mechanism. Why is the conditioning necessary? The
conditioning is necessary because it has to have a repertoire of what we
have learned. The mission is I’ve got to produce a repertoire of what we
have learned because the new has to be expressed, has to be
represented, and that representation requires a repertoire of learned
skills.
At once we need the skills and conditioning but also what we need is a
balance between the call of conditioning and the call of creativity. When
this balance is created, then we can be creative. When conditioning is
excessive and little creativity, we are very limited in creativity. When
creativity exists in a profound amount, but the repertoire is lacking, we
are creative but we cannot represent.
You have encountered many people who are very creative, they have
ideas all the time but they cannot get anything done because they have
very poor repertoire, so what we need is this balance. The Chinese called
it the balance between Yin and Yang. Yin is the conditioning and the Yang
is the possibilities created, we have to have this balance. We have to
have a harmony between the two.
Dr. Alvino: I think your formula, if I may call it a formula not to disparage it, but your
formula for the balance is the jingle, right?
Dr. Goswami: Yes.
Dr. Alvino: It’s your famous jingle, that balance between “do-be-do-be-do” is critical
to balancing the creativity and balancing as you say the repertoire which
is needed… On the one hand, we require conditioning and at the same
time we are required or compelled to transcend that conditioning?

October 2, 2014
Dr. Goswami: Right and we do it just by simply relaxing. We do it by simply relaxing and
saying to the unconscious that “Okay, now I give up, I relax and you take
over.”
Dr. Alvino: This is going to sound like a weird question. Can I visualize myself as a
wave possibility, and if so how? From that wave possibility if it is even
possible to experience, it’s probably a contradiction, can I experience the
pure potentiality emerge as a new me in the image that I desire?
Dr. Goswami: This is in a way this is an interesting and evocative question. You get to
try it. There is a paragraph here because you can experience only one
thing at a time. The object manifests only one aspect of its possibilities at
a time. Therefore, the experiences are always limited. You can never
experience the full potentiality, but if you keep on, this is the beauty of
pursuit here.
If you keep on doing it again and again, then if you compare your
experience and previous situation, then you start getting an idea: “Oh,
okay but this is the time I experienced this, but then I experienced that,
and then I experience that and then I experience that which is completely
different;” but in all of this I’m experiencing the same archetype, the
same underlying idea and therefore all of this must be evolved into
potentiality that exists in that particular investigation.
In this way, we’ll become aware that, “Okay, so there is more than just
one thing, one expression of these pure ideas.” There must be many,
many things, many representations, many, many forms that I can give.
When we realize that, then we wake up to this infiniteness of the creative
exploration. We don’t need to ever stop the exploration, it just goes on
and on because there are forever new facets we discover.
On the Subject of Individuality
Dr. Alvino: It sounds like the primary thing is becoming aware of one’s individuality is
identifying our predominant archetype.
Dr. Goswami: Yeah, absolutely identifying the dominant archetype and the one that we
chose in some ways connected with our reincarnation of life. We may not
have to be aware of all of it, we may not be able to be aware of all of it,
but there are ways a psychologist can graph this with holographic

October 2, 2014
breathing. If you do this, you go back to your birth experience, I said
moment of death before -- once you choose and become clear, it’s
connected with the moment of birth as well.
If you can re-experience the moment of birth, often this reincarnation of
memories come back to you and so that’s one way of discovering your
Dharma. I usually suggest a different way, which is that you just try to
remember, just remember what your propensities were when you were a
child. Again, it’s a regression to childhood memories and that works for
some people.
Other people do past life regression therapy, and there are various skilled
professionals that do a past life and then you might remember the
propensities you used to have in past life, and that can give you a hint of
what propensities (comparing with present propensities) what kind of
propensities you’re ignoring or neglecting, and that might give you a hint
about work, Dharma wise.
All of these ideas are just waking up to this fact that if I knew what I came
to do here, what is the meaning of this particular life, then my life will be
better, then my life will have a purpose and therefore I’ll become happy.
Dr. Alvino: Are the archetypes mutually exclusive?
Dr. Goswami: Not at all, they’re very supportive like the archetype of truth, I know this
personally. When I was doing science just as an archetype of truth, the
science was very dry, but then when I allowed love to come into the
exploration of truth, it became juicy. The difference is just surrender, the
difference is fantastic, there’s just no comparison. When we investigate
truth in a dry way… what happens is that the rest of life becomes almost
disconnected from your investigative life.
Life was so dry, it seemed to be so meaningless in what we are doing, so
then it came to me one day after a whole day of frustration with negative
emotion of jealousy of other people, then it came to me finally at one
o’clock in the morning that, why do I live this way? I don’t have to live
this disconnected dry way of doing science. Then I woke up to the fact
that I want to do happy physics, physics that makes me happy, physics
with love.

October 2, 2014
Dr. Alvino: I absolutely love it.
On the Subject of Business and Economics
Business, you have a section in your book on health, you have a section in
your book on business. I’m particularly interested in both, but I want to
ask you a question about a business basically how you see business
evolving … how is it evolving or how does it need to evolve. I think you
say in Quantum Creativity that transcendent consciousness would be
more apt to support the WE, a service orientation, what I might call a
purpose motive versus profit motive. Again, they are not mutually
exclusive, but what do you see in terms of how evolution is moving with
business? What does this mean for the future of business and success in
business, the whole quantum creativity orientation?
Dr. Goswami: This is a very, very good question and close to my heart because I just
finished a manuscript on a new kind of economics called quantum
economics. The basis of business is the science of economics or
supported science of economics. The way we do economics has become
somewhat different from what Adam Smith discovered back in the 18th
century. It’s different, how the basic idea of capitalism is that if you
combine people of [means] who have creativity and a gift to produce, if
you combine that with the fact that other people need these products, so
gift and need if we put them together.
Then if you give the people’s own selfish desires, their selfish intentions
of first of all manifesting the gift for the producers and consuming the
need for the consumers, if you allow the selfish desires to guide this and
if you give the market invisible hands of the market, give them a free
reign, Adam Smith said that there could be between production and
consumption, the resources where they are located properly in the
various sectors of the economy, and all things will be good.
This model has worked for us, otherwise we wouldn’t be here today. An
absolutely tremendous amount of wealth has been created. A lot of
people criticized this, some of them are quite valid, but nevertheless I
think everybody should agree that was a good alternative. For example
before capitalism, there’s a feudal economy, all the capital was
concentrated in the hands of a few, and people generally were not

October 2, 2014
participating; that model was horrible. Capital didn’t move. Economy was
stagnant…
What works is when you’re supposedly selfish desires -- that’s one of the
factors-- but then there is an unwritten part of Adam Smith, it’s implicit
not explicit. The implicit part is that you also have to have an awareness
of the social good because you are part of the society. Therefore,
Adam Smith was implicitly assuming that both the gifted people and the
people who consume, they will be basically ethical towards their societal
needs, so that the social good, individual good, yes, selfish good, yes but
there is also a social good unwritten part of capitalism that there should
also be attention to social good.
This attention often is forgotten by the businesses. When that happens,
then two things suffer. One is that the whole spirit of capitalism is lost
but the other one is that the creativity also suffers. Then what came was
supposed to correct by politics, because democracy which is the other
institution that grew in 18th century, demands that we have a political
system, so government takes care of much broader problems that the
individuals cannot take care of. Since we have the government, the
Keynesian idea was that, “Well okay, why don’t we use the government
to take care of the social good?”
The individual good and capitalism and free market will take care of itself,
and the social good government will take care of. This also has its own
disadvantage because it depends on what people we elect to the
government because they may decide it differently like eventually this
Roosevelt kind of demand side economic… gave way to the republican
idea of supply side economics under Reagan.
As you know, this has been a disaster for us because it increased the
national debt and so many other things went wrong with it. Basically, we
have created a huge gap between wealthy people and poor people and
again this is almost similar, almost the same as the feudal economy. This
economy is very unstable. This is what many people are saying today.
There was a best seller a while ago that proposed that if indeed this is
very, very unstable and very, very risky. We might have another
revolution like French Revolution…

October 2, 2014
The new idea then was spiritual economics or quantum economics is
suggesting is that since consciousness is the ground of being, let’s see
what the demands of consciousness are.
We have been very narrowing down on what our gifts and needs are all
about. Maslow was very gifted psychologist who already pointed out that
look, we don’t have just material needs, we have the whole hierarchy of
needs. The new science makes it very clear what these needs are because
it says that we not only have the physical body but we also have the vital
body needs, we have the mental body needs, so we even have the
archetypes [like] the law of attraction. We should certify those needs too.
Our spiritual tradition has given plenty of people who are excelling and
who give thumbs up to the production of love, production of health,
production of beauty; so why not take advantage of those gifts and make
them the subject of the sectors of economy. This is what quantum
economy does.
Businesses must go into not only producing material goods but producing
vital energy goods, producing mental, meaningful goods which we do to
some extent already but most importantly produce the archetype of
goods. What are these? Who can manifest archetypes? We cannot
represent archetypes in a stone, we can only represent archetypes in a
human being. We can only represent archetypes as actually a fully
transformed human being.
The idea can go as far as becoming a new kind of economy in which we
actually propose and produce human capital not only just capital as
material representation but capital as human representation. Look, what
that does to our businesses and what does that do to our labor force?
The labor is no longer just instruments to produce the material capital
that we call capital, but labor is instrumental to produce its own
transformation and human capital. This become the valuable thing of our
society.
When we orient the society this way, when businesses actually get into
producing not only the material representation as capital but also the
human representation as capital, again the whole society from the get-go
is involved in maintaining social good. Social good becomes part of the
production. In the mechanism itself, it’s taking care of social good. We

October 2, 2014
don’t have to impose it by the government because that doesn’t work.
Government depends on who it is that is governing and we cannot
maintain that good.
If we can do it this way, then the economy is built in such a way that
automatically both personal good and social good will be taken care of.
So my suggestion to business as creative businesses is that, first of all,
invest in vital energy, invest in mental energy meaningful things, and
create meaningful jobs and most of all, concentrate not only on material
representations of value but also spiritual representation of value and
the human being itself.
Dr. Alvino: That’s a fascinating model, Amit, and I have a sense, I mean you have
more of the research and the investigation behind it, but I have a sense
that in this whole movement, I mean we’re in the 21st century now, but
more in terms of the whole movement and evolution of consciousness,
I’ve got a feeling that unless businesses do pretty much what you’re
saying more and more of them will lose market share to those businesses
who are doing it.
Dr. Goswami: Yeah, that’s part of it.
Dr. Alvino: They’ll be out of business.
Dr. Goswami: That’s part of it but there’s also more dangerous thing that is lacking
behind. Don’t forget the financial part of the sector of the economy. That
sector of the economy is already much bigger than the regular sector of
the economy in terms of monetary value that can be assigned to it… The
amount that is processed in it, the dollar amount, that’s just staggering,
so what’s the problem with it?
The problem with it is that it’s totally devoid of creativity. There is no
creativity needed, only knowledge of mathematics and statistics and risk
taking like gambling. If we know mathematics, if we can keep track of
what cards were there before, anybody can win a fortune and black jack,
right?
Same thing [with the economy], maybe mathematical economists are
making a fortune, they’re being paid millions of dollars a month to
produce a huge amount of wealth for some people who are willing to

October 2, 2014
take the risk and hire these mathematicians who can calculate probability
better than anybody else, but this is totally devoid creativity.
It’s not just the danger of the material pollution that we are suffering,
we’re really having a huge pollution of our brain itself because the brain
is not being used in a creative way. This is the most dangerous thing that
is taking place, instead we’re cluttering up the brain with [trivial]
information.
We’re talking about things like chemical pollution of the environment or
environmental pollution in terms of global warming, but this is a serious
poisoning of our own brain… We don’t need so much information. What
we need is meaning. What we need is to invite [and investigate] the
archetype. Those are the things.
The neocortex was made to make representation of meaning not to just
store information… This is why we have quantum activism to wake
people up who are capable and then for them to wake other people up
like our politicians [and leaders] in the businesses.
On the Subject of Getting the Public Involved in Quantum Activism
Dr. Alvino: I’m glad you brought it back the quantum activism because I’m looking at
your center for quantum activism and it’s beautifully done and I think the
purpose, the design, and what you’re trying to achieve in the world is
nothing less than miraculous. You’re really spearheading this evolution
of consciousness, and I think that that’s absolutely brilliant and you’re the
one to do it.
You make a statement in the book that we know that materialist scientist
will fight this. The traditional … the mainstream scientists are really
locked in their box. They’re trapped in their own paradigm. You said in
your book that the public may be more open to this, they understand it,
they’re not locked into the algorithms. They’re not locked into the
mathematics of it all. They’re not locked into the materialist scientific
world view.
What I want to ask is, how do I and the public get involve with you? How
does the public get involved with you and get behind your mission
because those of us who recognize that it’s important and it’s critical to

October 2, 2014
our nature, to our health, to our spirit, most importantly to our spirit --
there are many, many people out there I think who want to get behind
your mission. How do we do that? What do we do?
Dr. Goswami: I wish that there was a simple answer to this. The simple answer, I tried it
for a while myself, is that [probably for us to] change our world view
because quantum physics works better, but notice the difficulty of this
thing. You have to motivate first people to become conscious that world
view determines what they do, how they live, and that’s a huge thing
because the prejudice particularly in America is that world view is
something that philosophers do. [Taking a] world view is not something
that ordinary people do … that’s not for ordinary people, so how do you
make it clear to ordinary people?
This is why I think it’s a combination of quantum doctors, quantum
psychologist, quantum economist that have a better chance. This is why
I’m glad that you connected health and business and world view and
quantum activism because that is where ordinary people’s lives are
intertwined.
Ordinary people worry about their pocketbook. Ordinary people worry
about their love life. Ordinary people worry about their health. If the new
science has something to contribute in this department, and I claim that
it does, and without it in fact we will fail in all of these areas. This is
where the change is going to happen.
Ordinary people are going to become interested because of their family
life, the so-called family values that our republican leaders push so much
but are completely clueless about how to really improve the family life…
Why is our family breaking down, because we are not following the
archetype anymore. We’re not really exploring love, families who are
perfect example of what love is about, but what is love in our family
today?
We have to go and ask ourselves… where are we failing? We are ignoring
the archetypes. They are still calling us. They’re still attracted to us but
we are not attracted to them. We are devoting our life instead to trivial
pursuit, and this is where we are going wrong, so how do we do it? My
suggestion is a combination. We do it because the economics is more
[conducive] right now, so we have to have additional products, and as we

October 2, 2014
buy these products that I’m suggesting, vital energy products, we buy
vital energy, meaning what? We consume this vital product and it gets
me love, it gets me a feeling of love.
On the Subject of Vital Energy Products
Dr. Alvino: Give me an example of a vital energy product.
Dr. Goswami: This doesn’t exist yet, but I suggested it in the new book. If we take the
essence, we already know that roses have something to do with
romance, right?
Dr. Alvino: Yes.
Dr. Goswami: I mean on a mother’s bed they used to put rose petals, why? Because
they know that romantic love is enhanced by something that exists in the
rose petal. What is it? Science shows that it’s the vital energy of love,
romantic love that’s associated with the flower, rose. When we take the
material [fragrance] and make a perfume of rose, it has the smell of rose
but it does not have the vital essence. We have to re-inject the vital
essence back.
Vital energy people like myself, they already know various ways of doing
this and there are already products that are out there, by the way. It’s
not entirely [barren ground]. I found out in Brazil, for example, some
people are already in the production of “vitalize,” re-vitalized product,
but nobody has produced yet. I don’t think [there is] a vitalized perfume
that has this rose petal energy of romantic love, but if we did that, if we
produced that… I already have an idea how to do it and other people too,
they also have an idea of how to do it.
Suppose a combination of these ideas work, and we do it. Then what
happens is that this… Joe the plumber buys this perfume because his
romantic life is horrible and so for him … he gets it to his wife and the
wife and uses it. Indeed, the energy of romance comes back right away,
but not in that aphrodisiac kind of way. Remember it’s different. It’s not
aphrodisiac in the sense of getting you wonderful erection… it’s not that.
It’s different. It gives you the romantic love, a component of vulnerability,
a component of “I can do anything for this woman.”

October 2, 2014
Joe the plumber who was only interested in the honeymooners way of
treating women, all of a sudden this guy wants to die for the woman in
his arms; and the wife has not experienced that and this is why she’s not
interested in sex anymore, so the wife becomes alive in their relationship
and their relationship changes, and Joe says, “Oh my god, this perfume
really works, so let’s get more of it.” And so we have a very successful
product, but now two people who were not interested in relationship at
all, their relationship interest is rekindled.
From that it’s only one more set of another product, this time mental
energy to get into the meaning of love. Then another product archetype
of getting into unconditional love, and see how the society itself can be
changed to economic products that will be vital to the economy at the
same time be vital to the life of the consumers.
Dr. Alvino: In each case, each sphere of our economy, each cultural form actually, its
sphere seems to require particularly that injection of vital energy for
starters.
Dr. Goswami: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Alvino: It starts there.
Dr. Goswami: That’s why human rights starts because remember it is absolutely
important to have, to start with what we already have. We already have
sexuality. We don’t have to invent it, we already got it. We have it…
except that in the way our life proceeds today, the impact is gone after a
few months of a sexual relationship. We have to know how to rekindle it
and this is where the new science … this is where the understanding of
creativity, this is where the formulation of a new economics will [factor
in] enormously.
Dr. Alvino: Dr. Goswami, we have gone way over our time which I’m delighted. I
could go another hour. I could go a whole day.
Dr. Goswami: Talking to you Jim is just so wonderful.
Dr. Alvino: Thank you, you’ve been so generous with your time and I really
appreciate that, and I look forward to the day when you and I can
actually meet and spend a little bit more time together and talk more

October 2, 2014
about these things. These are the subjects, Amit, that fascinate me and
you know why? My doctorate is in philosophy, and I have to say that I
have always had… it had to be my predominant propensity… If you look
at the etymology of the word it means lover of truth.
In my way I’m seeking truth and your way, you’re seeking truth. I took the
hit for that a lot as a younger person. You get a lot of ridicule for that.
What are you going to do with philosophy? What are you going to do
with quantum physics? It’s that whole predominance of the utilitarian
value that people tend to impose on you and not respect your
uniqueness. I felt very much pulled as a younger person going into this
particular field conflicted because of the external pressures. Perhaps you
did too.
I would love for us to get together – I know you travel a lot -- and maybe
at a time when you’re going to be in the states for a while, I could come
up and visit you and-
Dr. Goswami: Okay, absolutely.
Dr. Alvino: That would be wonderful. OK, to get in touch with you, someone wants
to purchase your book, should they go to Amazon, should they go to your
website?
Dr. Goswami: Amazon, website both work. Website has a link to Amazon so if you go to
the website, www.amitgoswami.org. There is a link to Amazon and you
can do everything you want to do with the books, and absolutely you can
investigate these books that may be able to give you a hint of how to live
your life in a very satisfactory way. I’m especially very pleased about
Quantum Creativity. It really is an easy book. I usually have a little bit of
difficulty writing a really user-friendly book, although I tried; this time I
had a wonderful editor and he helped me to develop a user-friendly book
and so I strongly recommend it.
Dr. Alvino: I’ll tell you, I recommend it to everybody. I do a lot of coaching. I have
coaching students and clients all over the world and some of them… who
have given any indication whatsoever of being interested in quantum, or
let’s call it the energetic side of life, your book is what I recommend.
Amit Goswami: Thank you.

October 2, 2014
Jim Alvino: You’re so welcome, Amit. Thank you. It’s a brilliant edition to the
literature and I’m grateful to have it, and I’m grateful to know you.
Amit Goswami: Thank you, Jim.

Jim Alvino Interview of Dr Amit Goswami Part 2 Transcript

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