The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 084 David Kadavy

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW
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Episode #84: David Kadavy
http://theentrepreneursradioshow.com/84-david-kadavy-reverse-engineering-beauty-grow-customer-
base/
In this episode, Travis talks with successful designer and internet entrepreneur David Kadavy. David is
a well-known writer and blogger as well as a sought after speaker. His book, Design for Hackers:
Reverse-Engineering Beauty has been a top selling book in Amazon and has helped thousands of
people create an attractive and well-designed website through balanced and clever visual design.
David and Travis also discussed about various topics such as the importance of design and user-
experience in creating your website and this would create an image for your business that consumers
will take seriously. David gave his take on the common design strategies that help create an impact on
websites. Communicating with the designers and establishing the objectives of the business is one
thing, another would be creating a hierarchy for competing elements in your design. Simplicity also
goes a long way in creating a visually appealing and understandable website layout. These are just
some of the things that David points out as he and Travis talk about the importance of design and how
it works for your business.
David Kadavy – Reverse engineering beauty
to grow your customer base
Travis: Hey, it's Travis Lane Jenkins, welcome to episode number 84 of the Entrepreneur's Radio
Show, a production of Rock Star Entrepreneur Network, where each and every episode I will
deconstruct the path to success for each of our guest so that you can see kind of behind the scenes
what they've done to become successful. The reason why I do this is I want you to model what other
successful people have done so that we can help you fast track your business to that next level.
Now, as always I'm going to remind you to notice how imperfect their journey is each and every time.
It's a misnomer that most successful people are on this rocket ride straight to success. While it does
happen sometimes, it's rare and it's a very flawed path so you've just got to really put your nose to the
grindstone and be very tenacious. So, point made there.
Today I'm going to introduce you to rockstar entrepreneur David Kadavy. In this interview, we're going
to cover a wide range of topics that will bring value to you as a business owner. Although, one of the

main reasons why I wanted to bring David to you was design plays such an important role for our
business on, really, every level. David is the author of Design for Hackers. Now, before you start
thinking this show's for hackers it's not, so hang in there with me. The book is Design for Hackers,
Reverse Engineering Beauty, which debuted in the top 20 of Amazon's best-seller list. Pretty,
impressive.
David is dedicated to breaking down the fundamentals of good design and making design literacy
accessible to both developers and entrepreneurs just like me and you. So be sure and stay with us until
the very end if you can because, if you're new to the show, I like to share some inspiration with you.
Plus, I've got a contest that I want to tell you about that where you'll have a chance to win $73,000 in
cash and prizes plus a Lamborghini, so be sure and hangout until the very end.
As always, before we get started I want to remind you that there are two ways you can take these
interviews on the go with you rather than sitting at your computer. You can use iTunes or Stitcher,
unless you have some type of podcast app. But the two bigger options, for those of you that don't know
any different is iTunes and Stitcher. And what you can do is you can go to
Rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com and you'll find iTunes and Stitcher on the menu bar there, and that
way you can just click on it and it'll take you directly to the link where you can subscribe, or to the place
on their site where you can just subscribe. So, hopefully that makes it easier for you.
Now that we've got all of those things out of the way, what do you say we get down to business, okay?
So without further ado, welcome to the show David.
David: Thanks a lot for having me Travis.
Travis: Yeah, I'm super excited to have you my friend. We were just talking, you're going to be doing a
little singing later in the interview, right, possibly?
David: Yeah. I was told I would have to do some singing which is serendipitous because I'm taking
singing lessons.
Travis: Is that scaring the heck out of you, just the thought of that?
David: The singing? Actually, it might have scared me earlier, when I hadn't done as much public
speaking as I have now, but I've got a pretty good handle that stuff now. Now, if I actually had to sing
your theme song, yeah, that would be pretty scary.

Travis: Right. Well, you're a cool customer. So listen, one of the things I like to do is beyond what the
entrepreneurs have done to become successful or what they do to be successful. I like to deconstruct, I
like to understand your back-story and then deconstruct it a little bit because I feel like it's very
instructive to other entrepreneurs to understand there's so many different paths to success. So, would
you mind sharing the back-story of what brought you to success?
David: Yes, it's going to be fun. Do you really just want me to give you the whole story, huh?
Travis: Yeah, whatever you feel like is relevant.
David: Well, okay, just to frame it all I guess I would say that where I guess I've been successful at is I
wrote a book called Design for Hackers. And it is a book that breaks down design principles from a
standpoint that developers, and bootstrap entrepreneurs, and people who wouldn't consider
themselves designers can understand design. And that all started just early in life I was obsessed with
drawing all the time. And so, then I’m studying graphic design in college, there is no question that I
wanted to do something like that. Then a parallel to all that I got interested in computers and interested
in internet, I was on AOL in 1995. And then eventually, I was living in Nebraska, which is where I'm
originally from, and then I kind of got discovered by a startup in Silicon Valley. So then I moved out
there and I worked for that startup for about a year, and I worked for another startup for about a year.
And I was blogging along this time. Early in life I didn't enjoy writing, in fact I remember I really didn't
like writing, but I was blogging during this time.
And so I was working for those different startups, and then I went out on my own, and just decided I'm
just going to experiment and see what's inside of my brain. I really just felt this really compelling need to
just explore. And so I did that for about 3 years and messed around with a lot of different projects,
founded some of my own, I guess I would call projects. You could call them startups but I don't think
they were at that level or anything. And some of the things I was experimenting with was with writing
and eventually I got pretty good at writing. And I wrote a blog post about Design for Hackers and I had
email in my inbox within a couple of days asking me if I wanted to write a book about it.
Travis: And so Design for Hackers is it really for hackers?
David: Well, there's the popular media portrayal of the word hackers I think is somebody who breaks
into computers and I think I might have a siren coming by.
Travis: That's okay. This is a real world interview so it's no big deal.
David: Yeah, it is the real world, it's exciting.

Travis: You may hear some trains here and a little bit on my side.
David: Oh yeah, well, you got to get me some trains.
Travis: Yeah, okay.
David: Anyway, where was I at?
Travis: So, I'd ask you, is it really for hackers, which of course I think is a rhetorical question.
David: Yeah, the popular media portrayal of hackers, being somebody who breaks into computers. But
this definition of it being this kind of group of people who really value learning new things, and using
technology to solve problems, and be willing to learn whatever it is that they need to learn to achieve
their vision. And there's a big community online that identifies, what’s that… they hang-out on a site
called Hacker News which is where a lot of the success came from, from that particular community. So
that's where the hacker name comes, it throws people for a loop every once in a while.
Travis: But a hacker is kind of synonymous with like shortcutting things, right? And not in half way but
finding a faster way. A life hackers, there's many--
David: Yeah.
Travis: I think to average person, hackers is, maybe doesn't know hackers could be a bad thing when
really hacking could be a shortcut to a solution or solving a problem, right?
David: Right. I actually looked up, I remember one time I Goggled hacker just to see what would come
up and it came up with a Google definition and it said someone who plays golf poorly.
Travis: Well, yeah, that's a euphemism for poor golfer.
David: It could be like that, but yeah, definitely hacking. I'm a life hacker as well, I write articles that are
often on Lifehacker, big productivity and stuff like that. So yeah, I think it's just like finding creative ways
to get certain things done. That might imply that my book is some sort of shortcut to great design which
I would say that it's not, and I haven't seen anything that is yet. I might be able to figure something out
at some point, but design is super complicated but it has that reverse engineering really is the tagline.
So I'm really like breaking down visual design and what it is that makes things attractive so the people
can learn the framework through which to understand design, when they see good design, when they're

working with designers. Can learn that framework so that they can, so to speak, teach them how to fish
rather than give them a fish.
Travis: And so, is it just a different way of looking at things or a simplified way of coming up with
something that's aesthetically pleasing and optimized from a functionality standpoint?
David: it's more about that reverse engineering beauty. Just for example, I try to keep things
entertaining, and interesting, and engaging too. I'm really influenced by authors like Malcolm Gladwell
or Dan Ariely, by really engaging things where I'll just kind of try to take a powerful example and use
that as a conduit through which to understand, sort of like talk about other concepts. So for example,
I've got a blog post that the content is in the book, it's called the "Why you hate comic sans", which is
an infamous font. And so, through explaining what it is about comic sans that makes it not such a great
typeface. I explained a lot of things about typography that people tend to find really interesting and that
they end up reading and paying attention to a lot more than they would've if the blog post were called,
"Here's some geeky stuff about typography".
Travis: Makes it much more desirable to consume.
David: Yeah, it's like a little Trojan horse to get into the minds of the audience that might not be as
interested in this topic otherwise.
Travis: So, reverse engineering, what did you say?
David: Reverse engineering beauty.
Travis: Beauty, okay. So, I'll give you an example of a skill that I've had. It'll be in a complete different
arena but it doesn't necessarily translate to other areas. So I've always had an ability as a young man
to where-- So I'm 47 and customizing your own vehicle was much less popular when I was young and
so I always had a knack for picking out a set of rims and those tires, and doing things to a vehicle that
was a stock vehicle and then all of a sudden it had this stance and it had this aesthetic beauty to it that
everyone said, "Wow, that's a beautiful vehicle and I wanted it," right?
David: Yeah, kind of give it its own personality and flair, right?
Travis: Yeah, rather than this boring assembly line vehicle, all of a sudden it had a stance and an
attitude, right?
David: Yeah.

Travis: And you know, it's just something that organically come to me I understood, and it's very--
Sports vehicles, hot rods and things normally have curves that are very similar and sleek like a beautiful
woman.
David: Yeah.
Travis: And although my sense of style and design doesn't necessarily correlate to websites because
there's just so much going on and it's not near as easy to assemble, and make functional, and sleek at
the same time. Why is it so much more complex?
David: I would say with everything that's designed, I try to expose and illustrate that there's like these 3
certain factors that are always present, everything, whether it's a car that you're talking about or it's like
an impressionist painting, or it's a website. And those are like technology, what's the technology that's
being used, there might be-- If you're using example of a car that has certain materials that are more
lightweight, or that bends easier, so that allows different types of curves. There's cultural things that
influence designs and that could be that I guess in some places really big cars are popular, some
places really small cars are popular.
Travis: Right.
David: It depends upon the culture or the personal taste. There's also the intentions of it, and I think
this is where it maybe makes it easier for you to understand a car than maybe in a website because the
intentions of a car are pretty simple, it's pretty well figured out. This is going to have 4 wheels, and it's
going to go forward, and there's kind of a limitation to what's going to do with the main functions of it all.
Now, when it comes to interactive things you're kind of inventing from scratch in a way. There are
patterns on websites and in apps, and stuff, but then that layer of intention is a lot more complicated,
you got to figure it out. That's like I think were UX comes in and you can't really have a great visual
design without a great UX too.
Travis: UX being?
David: Oh, user experience.
Travis: Right.
David: The actual experience of the product which is something that can be a separate thing from the
visual design of it, but the visual design depends upon really heavily.

Travis: And so, it seems to me like you're saying that this understanding of design and user experience
and all of those other things can be taught to the business owner so that they can-- Well, let me stop
there, am I correct?
David: Yeah, and actually the book is written with technologically savvy people in minds however that
doesn't mean that only people who know how to code or something can really appreciate it. In fact,
there's actually very little written about coded specific technologies in there as much as possible. But it
is more for-- I've got lawyers on my email list, I've got people who are researchers, or they work in real
estate, or they're accountants who are interested in learning about design for their business so they can
have a better understanding of how to create things that communicate clearly, whether it's a
presentation or something like that.
Travis: Right. Yeah, and I believe we've become such a DIY, do it yourself type of nation almost.
There's so much more do it yourself type things.
David: Yeah.
Travis: And so, I know that you can't be a technology dummy. My father has a difficult time using his
phone and he always blames it on the phone, right?
David: Right.
Travis: Now, I love my father but he's never going to design a website that functions properly because
he doesn't care about that. As a matter of fact he doesn't even want to turn on the computer. So, you
do have to have some level of intelligence when it comes to that functionality but the average
intelligence person can consume this, understand those pieces, and make changes that make sense
with their website, do you feel like that's accurate?
David: Yeah, I think that necessity is mother of invention, right?
Travis: Right.
David: I think the people are learning how to do a lot of things on their own and in part because they
want to but also like it's just so much easier now. Like you can create a crazy, complicated, multi-
dimensional bracelet using shape ways or something like that. Or you can make your own album, or
you can have your own radio show like this, it's very easy to do things. And so, people are fighting in
order to do those things well. There's all these skills that kind of come along with it, and there's those
technology skills like you talked about. And the way I see it, design this visual communication is a new

kind of literacy, more and more and people learn how to do it. And this is actually happening without
them noticing. If I'm sure that a lot of your listeners have heard of the font comic sans. If I told them
Georgia, or Times New Roman, or Arial, I think the maybe picture something like that and that wouldn't
have been the case like 20 years ago. Far fewer people have that understanding or thought about
those things back then.
Travis: You said a word that really struck home with me and made sense is visual communications,
because that makes a lot of sense. And there are certain processes or-- Let's say processes as an
example, I'm trying to explain a process. I coach, personally mentor several businesses and I really
have a hard time explaining to them what's going to happen unless I have a visual aid. And once the
visual aid is there they're like, "Ah". I can take a very complex situation that a lot of dynamic things are
happening.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Travis: And I can illustrate it and soon as I illustrate it I can take someone from unconsciously
incompetent to consciously incompetent, right? From stage one to stage two, very fast on a very
complex topic. It was all using visual communication. Whereas if I tried to convey that verbally or even
written it would have taken a whole lot more effort and they probably still wouldn't have gotten it.
David: Yeah, absolutely. That's I think why designers are becoming such a hot topic is because there's
so much information out there and we're on our phones looking at all these different, just consuming so
much information but design just mix it so we can absorb it so much more quickly.
Travis: Right.
David: It's really the things that's connecting our brains to computers, to mobile devices, and basically
connecting other people's brains really.
Travis: Well, you know there's a line in that old song and it struck me a long time ago because it's
really meant a lot to me and they say "You don't learn but what you hear but by what you see." And so
a lot of times we disbelieve what we hear but we very rarely disbelieve what we see.
David: Right, you see it, you believe it right?
Travis: Yeah, exactly. And so, that's just more supporting commentary on the visual communications.
And I've never really looked at it like that. I guess this is kind of an opening of my eyes as we talk about

this. So you started down this path in 1995 with AOL, and "You've got mail." Alright, and so, when was
it that you were doing the blogging?
David: I started my blog on May 31, 2004. If you were to search for my first blog, Kadavy you would
find my first blog post and it is terrible. It is a run-on paragraph, just one paragraph; there is a
misspelling in it. The gist of the blog post is basically, "I don't know why I'm doing this but I just feel like I
should, I feel compelled to."
Travis: Here it goes.
David: And I thank myself everyday for starting.
Travis: Yeah, anything worth doing is worth doing imperfectly.
David: Yes. Give yourself permission to suck. I've written another blog post called that. Basically,
everything I say is something I've written a blog post about.
Travis: So, that's right around when blogging started becoming, if I remember correctly, I think blogging
started becoming popular or really become even a verb, right?
David: Yeah, I wasn't a pioneer by any means, there were definitely plenty of blogs out there at that
time and I was just kind of wanted to-- I saw a lot of them, I thought it was exciting that people had this
place where they could express themselves, but also more than anything I wanted a sandbox that I
could test out different-- I was excited about CSS. Back then CSS, which is Cascading style sheet, so
this is the type of way out that, was just a lot more. It's common place now but back then it was a brand
new thing. So I just wanted a place to have a sandbox to play around with web design technologies.
Travis: Right. So paint me the picture, how do you go from writing a blog to Silicon Valley startups
recruiting you?
David: Yeah, well. So, my first job out of college was I started the design department at our
architecture firm and that was really interesting because I got to work with architects and I got to work
in all sorts of mediums. I got to do architectural installations but I also did a lot of interactive CD's,
redesign the websites, doing print work as well. And basically, there's this magazine that's really well-
known in like the print design world that I don't know if anybody else would recognize it, it's called
Communication Arts. And I ended up getting a piece in that magazine which was like a big thing in my
career at that time. And basically, one of the architects just randomly met the founder of this startup at a
Spanish tapas restaurant on Nebraska. So that startup founder came in and we worked on a logo for a

year or so, he was a client of mine. And then eventually they got funding and said, "Hey, do you want to
come out here and work with us?" And I was like, "Sure, California then I'll go." And that was August
2005 or so, the timing couldn't have been better to be in Silicon Valley. I was there for a few years at
that point, 2005 to 2008. That was a really exciting time, and that was a great experience. So that's
basically how I ended up out there.
Travis: Yeah, and so for those of you that don't know, there's a difference between startups and
bootstraps. Startups in Silicon Valley typically have venture capitalist behind them that they floated a
business idea out there and they've gotten some funding for it. So they're going to try and grow this
business very quickly, versus most people that listen to this show are solo entrepreneurs that bootstrap
their business from startup to where it is today, right?
David: Yeah, and if I could add to that, when they told me they were raising money and they were
going to hire me and stuff, I didn't know what they were talking about, I had no idea. But then after
attending a few years in Silicon Valley I did gain literacy or understanding of this raising money, venture
capital, how that stuff works. But then the more I worked on my own projects the more I realized that
that wasn't my style. So I'm a bootstrapper and that's I think one of the things that maybe decide that,
"Okay, I've learned a lot here in Silicon Valley, it's okay for me to leave now."
Travis: Yeah, that's a very different environment isn't it?
David: Yeah. It was so exciting, it really unlocked a lot of creativity and belief in myself just being there
but I got my fill.
Travis: Yeah, I'm with you. I've never been a fan of a corporate mentality. And now I've never been
involved with a startup although I know several people that have. My perception is that there would be a
lot of corporate mentality things going on within that environment and all of those attitudes fly in the
face and completely disagree with my beliefs on the way to run business and how to do things. Am I
somewhat accurate there?
David: The thing that I ran into that made me feel like it wasn't really for me was that I did work for one
startup that didn't go well. I realized like, "Gosh, I'm making a lot of money here. What did I do this last
few weeks that contribute to the world?" It was actually kind of like a socially conscious start-up, but
still, I just didn't feel like I had earned it. And I realized it just felt like I was-- I don't want to sound
juvenile but like come like a cog and somebody else was putting a bunch of money down to try out this
idea, and I was one of these people that was there to carry out and be a guinea pig and experiment
with when I'd rather be experimented with my own things.

Travis: Right.
David: So that was what going to be being a bootstrapper.
Travis: No, the same thing for me. It's almost kind of like one of those-- They did a commercial like in
the 90's where everything was the same tone gray and everybody's moving at this hypnotic slow pace.
And nobody's exhilarated or excited, and everybody's just a piece of the machine.
David: Yeah.
Travis: And I had grew one business to 8 figures and we had become very corporate, and basically
we'd manage to grow a business to a place where we took efficiency and took it in the bathroom and
drowned it in the bathtub. Because everybody was so busy doing busy stuff that really didn't get
anything done, and it just took me down. Now I was responsible for driving the business down that path
and allowing it to go down that path. But I felt the same feelings as no one was super passionate about
what's going on, and that's part of what's exciting about being involved in a bootstrap. And Bootstrap
doesn't mean that you're always struggling for income or profits but you've just built it and you're doing
something that you're really passionate about, right?
David: Yeah. First of all, working in start-ups in Silicon Valley was super exciting especially as I was
very young and I just got a lot more respect than I did from the people who were employing me than
like I did working in corporate mid-west. But it was always different, that was exciting too that it was
always different. But it did come around to where I didn't want to be a bootstrapper. And now I can look
at everything that I've done and say, "Man, I did all of that." I certainly can't take credit for everything
you always had help from some people here in there. But I know how it all works; I know where it all
came from.
Travis: Yeah.
David: And that's a really gratifying feeling, plus, the business that I have now is just an extension of
my personal curiosities and stuff. So it's just far more fulfilling than trying to carry out somebody else's
mission for me personally.
Travis: Exactly. And so, part of becoming successful is figuring out what you don't like and what
doesn't work for you. And going down that path enriched who you are as a person and as an
entrepreneur. It was just another thing that you can say, "Listen, I've crossed that off the list, I don't
want to go down that path anymore," right?

David: Yeah, definitely. I've been on my own for 6 years now and, man, it was definitely not easy but--
Travis: Been there, done that, got that t-shirt.
David: Worth it, I guess--
Travis: Yeah.
David: Probably worth it, I'm glad that the worst is over, I think anyway.
Travis: Yeah, as far as you--
David: Famous last words, right?
Travis: Yeah, as far as you know. Okay, so bring me back to the design aspect of things. I'll try to recall
the numbers off the top of my head, I think there's 27 million entrepreneurs in the U.S., I forget how
many worldwide. And then 60% of those are one man armies. And so, why would an entrepreneur,
whether it be a solopreneur or whatever. Why would they want to take on this design hacking here?
David: A solopreneur specially can benefit from learning from sub design. I guess the main example I
would use would be the study by B.J. Fogg from the Stanford Persuasive Technology Lab where he sat
down people in front of websites and have them assess the credibility of those. And majority of the
comments were about the visual look and feel, were about the design, about whether the people
thought that the websites were credible. So that meaning really, if you can design something, makes
something look decent when you're designing it, and not have to pay somebody else, you're creating
value out of thin air. It can make such a big difference in how seriously people take your business. And
good designers are definitely not cheap so if you can, as a solopreneur, figure out how to do a little bit
of that yourself it's huge ROI.
Travis: Well, something that I've noticed is most designers don't get business.
David: Yeah, that's unfortunate such that I think that's accurate.
Travis: And most business owners assume that a designer understands business.
David: Yeah,
Travis: Right?

David: Right.
Travis: And so they think that this guy's going to design something that functions in capacity A, B, C,
and D when he's not.
David: Right.
Travis: And so that's a rude awakening for a lot of people because they can invest quite a bit of money
and then find out that there's several other problems going on into this. What do you feel like the top 5
mistakes are that people make with the design and would you slant that towards the website? What do
you find the design is most impactful for a small business owner?
David: Well, I guess I would first start with if you're working with a designer, it's true, a lot of designers
don't think about business or don't understand the objectives. They have completely different set of
skills. There's some out there who do understand that and that's one thing that you can probe for as
you're looking for somebody. But actually, managing that conversation so that the business objectives
are clearly communicated, you can use a little thing called a creative brief. You can Google it and find
some quick, short ways that you can communicate to a designer what is it that you are trying to
achieve. Like a lot of times, fuzzy or unclear business objectives can manifest themselves in design
problems. It works perfectly. I've been in some businesses where there was really unclear direction and
there are maybe like 3 or 4 different initiatives going on the business. And when you try to design the
homepage for it, it's sort of like, "Alright, what's bigger than the next?" And then it becomes this internal
struggle.
So really, communicating business objectives and keeping the conversation about that with its designer
I think is like a huge thing. Another thing is ask yourself, if you're a solopreneur, you're a bootstrapper,
you've got limited resources. Design's not cheap; it takes a lot of work. Ask yourself the serious
question, "How design is going to give you a competitive advantage?" Because it's not always going to.
There are cases were like if something is an extremely disruptive technology, especially if it's a B to B
play, designs that could be so important like Craig's List with super disruptive technology. It was so
much better than putting ads in the paper or something like that. And it got by and totally dominated
with terrible design.
Travis: Right.
David: But at the same time, all the verticals within Craig's list, Well, Craig's list is still very useful. All
the verticals within Craig's list are being eroded by competitors who are solving the same problems as
Craig's list is solving with their adding design or adding an experience on top of it. Things like Air B and

B, and top surfing. There's a whole graphic on the web actually about all the different that are being
attacked. Task Rabbit.
Travis: Those rental cars that you can pick up anywhere?
David: Yeah, ZipCar, Uber, things like that. All these verticals being attacked by companies that are
putting grey design on top of the problem. So you have to ask yourself, look at your competitors, look at
what your strategy is if you're a business person, and think about, "Okay, I'm going to need design and
differentiate here. Or it's not going to be a quite so important." So that's an important question to ask
yourself.
A lot of designers might try to act like design is a silver bullet in all cases. Not true, you still have to
think about your business, you still have to think about your strategy, you got to think about how design
fits with the best strategy.
Travis: Well, because now a designer wants to design. Something that people--
David: Just like if you ask a lawyer whether you should go solo proprietorship or if you ask an
accountant whether you should go sole proprietorship or S corp, they'll be like, "Oh, C corp all the way,
worked for me."
Travis: Yeah. People don't understand, a pharmacist wants to prescribe something for it, right? A
surgeon wants to cut on it, right?
David: Well, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Travis: Exactly. And so, I think that's brilliant, ask how his design going to improve and is it important or
is it relevant to what you're doing, right?
David: Yes, absolutely and I think it's a really important question to ask.
Travis: Okay, and so number 3.
David: Oh gosh.
Travis: So we've got 2.
David: We're going for the top 5, oh man.

Travis: Yeah, top 5 men. Come on, I've put you on the spot already.
David: Okay, that's fine, I can do it. If you're doing your own design, I think there's a few things. Watch
out for competing elements, you want to have like a really clear hierarchy, you want to make it clear
when people are looking at it. "Okay, this is the most important thing, this is the 2nd most important
thing, this is the 3rd most important thing." Don't go beyond that. Then within that first most important
thing you can kind of decide, okay, within this first most important thing, "Here's the first most important
in the first most important thing." Being clear visually with what is the most important thing that a person
should be looking at right now is a really important thing to do.
Another thing would be to simplify decisions and a great area for that is with font selection. People get
super anxious and super worried about picking the right typeface as if it's going to be the magic bullet,
and it's totally not going to be. Experienced designers dedicate their entire lives to it have trouble
picking typefaces. Simplify things a lot. I've got a little cheat sheet called "All the fonts you'll ever need"
is available at designforhackers.com. And it's not literally all the fonts you'll ever going to need but it's
got a list of a dozen or so fonts that if you were to just stick with them throughout your entire career
things would be okay. You'd have plenty of other things to worry about in making your design look
good. You could just simplify a decision, move on with other things. Which brings me to the next to the
last thing, number 5 which would be to think about all the invisible forces in design. Think about white
space; think about the way things are aligned, things about size changes. And if you think about those
things first then choices like "What typeface should I use? What color should I use? Should I have rule
line here? Should I have it graded here?" All those things that people tend to try to concentrate on
when they're learning about design are just distractions from the really important things which is
actually creating that clean look through lining things up, having scale changes of different elements
that makes sense. Picking the right amount of white space in-between things to say, "Okay, this little
subhead goes with this header, but this paragraph is further away." Communicating with these invisible
things in design is really important to making clean and clear-looking design quickly and efficiently.
Travis: So let me ask you this. I assume that design is kind of like writing, and what I mean by that is I
used to think before I started writing, now I was like you.
David: Yeah.
Travis: I despised writing; as a matter of fact I used to skip classes over writing.
David: Yeah. Oh man, I hated it too. I love it now, I love it.

Travis: I do too. I even skip classes over speaking and look at one of the things that I do for a living
now.
David: Yeah.
Travis: It's ironic; life has a funny way of turning things around on you, right? So, okay, my perception
before I started writing, number 1, it was a daunting, scary task because I missed so many of those
classes that I'm surprised that I can even spell. But to convey the points that I want to teach, I don't
necessarily have to be grammatically perfect as much as being able to convey an intelligent thought in
a way that with somewhat proper punctuation. Although in today's world, you can vary with some of the
punctuation from, my English teacher wouldn't be crazy about the way I do it, but some of it's designed
for tonality and inflection. But my point is I used to think that a finished article or maybe a landing page
or something come together much more finished as it was being developed, when I was completely
wrong. When I write, I just start writing. Now, I have the intro, and then the body, and all of those things,
but there's a lot of moving around and cleaning up, and then removing what shouldn't be there. Is
design the same way?
David: So is design the same way as, yeah, the editing. Yes.
Travis: I mean, so a really great-- I've got some documents that I've been writing that I give to people,
that I've been editing for a year, a year and a half.
David: Yeah. Design is definitely the same way, because as you've learned doing a lot of writing.
Writing really helps organize your thoughts. It helps you express those thoughts in a clear way and get
across to somebody what your main point is and what sort of supporting points you have to that. And
design is very much like that. And the process of design can be a lot like the process of writing. I've got
a process for my writing, usually there's a part of it that I call Barf draft and that is like you described.
Just write and you don't care about whether it sounds good or not, and you go back over it later and
you sort of read over it the same way you look at a design. You look at it again, "Alright, what is this
saying is this what I want to convey?"
Travis: Is it flowing?
David: Go back over it, yeah. Is it flowing, is it communicating? Because what you're doing is you're
doing the exact same thing, you are talking to another person. You are connecting your brain to their
brain and conveying these thoughts that you have to them. And that's what you're doing, whether
you're writing or you're designing. And so, yeah, the process if very similar that way.

Travis: So design can get messy when you're working it out and then you smooth it out, and it comes
together as something that you just kind of chew on and put the time in, and dial it in. I'm going to stay
up late tonight and redesign everything, right?
David: Yeah, it's like when I started getting better at writing, one of the things I learned was, gosh, you
don't sit down and try to write your final draft on your first sitting. You got to have steps like cognitive--
You have to like guide your brain through all the steps of understanding yourself what it is that you want
to communicate. So there's different kind of fidelity like levels that which you are going to do that. If
you're writing and there's outlines and there's the barf draft, and then maybe all those research. If
you're designing you might do some thumbnails, sketches with just like a pen, some paper. Or you
might do wireframes; you might just draw something up in keynote or PowerPoint.
Travis: Right.
David: Just to kind of get an idea of where different things going. It's going to look polished but it's
helping you organize your own thoughts for that final draft.
Travis: Right. Okay, well that's good to know. And so you said it in a very succinct way, I used to think
that writing, you wrote in almost a final draft and boy was I surprised.
David: It's so hard on your brain to try to do that. It's just so much better to sit down and have multiple
sessions where you go through it layer by layer that way.
Travis: Yeah. So I found, when I tried to engage my right brain and my left brain at the same time I get
nowhere, I just sit there and do nothing.
David: Yeah.
Travis: And so, the barf draft is you don't even correct spelling, you don't correct wrong words. It may
be half the sentence, it may be gibberish but that's okay, just keep going, you know.
David: Yeah, I've even got a trick where I will put certain things in brackets and I might say literally,
here's where I need an example about getting inspired. And then like, because that's a different gear for
my brain to be in and then like the barf draft gear.
Travis: Yeah.

David: And then later on I go back through it and say, "Okay, no I need to brainstorm this stuff as new
brackets."
Travis: Right, yeah. Get resource for this step.
David: Exactly, yeah.
Travis: And keep going, right.
David: Yeah, you don't want to try to get it all perfect the first time around because you're just asking
for trouble.
Travis: Yeah, exactly. So does your book kind of walk you through how to do some of those things?
David: It's not so much a how to book, it's really much more about providing, have a thought framework
through which people can understand design. There's not a lot of how to stuff in there. It's really trying
to install new eyes in your head, so that's when you see designs that you've liked, you'll have a better
understanding of what's going on.
Travis: Yeah, so that's moving them to stage 2 of competence, right? Most people don't know what
they're looking at but once they read your book then they'll understand what they're looking at and be
able to critique, or at least that's the beginning stage of understanding things. How do you evolved from
there and actually start implementing these things so that it brings value to the business?
David: You know, that's a good question, maybe it calls for another book or something. There's
definitely a lot of resources on the technical side of things, like how to actually use things like
Photoshop, or--
Travis: Oh no, no, no.
David: What you're trying to do, but.
Travis: Yeah, there's all kind of tools for that. So I guess once you understand what you teach in the
book, is it just as simple as getting tools like you're talking about to implement?
David: Learning design, it's definitely a long journey for everybody, just like learning to write has been
for me. I went from being terrible at it to writing a book in 4 years or something like that. So it's definitely
a long process. I wish I could think of some resources that were really great for making that final leap

but I'm always working on new stuff, and sending out emails, and blogging, and things like that. So I'm
working on some things that talk about the business aspect of things a little bit that can help people
who are business-minded think in a more applied manner about how should I be approaching design.
Travis: Sounds like a couple of good blog post topics.
David: Yeah, I know. I've got a huge Evernote file full of a lot of future blog articles; it's just a matter of
putting the polish on it I think.
Travis: Right. For me once I gain a level of competence, so now I know how to look at the art, I want to
know how to do the art.
David: Yeah.
Travis: And maybe it's just my natural-- Do you feel like that's an inquisitive thing for entrepreneurs or
maybe that's just something that is specific to me. Is that how you think and function also?
David: Let me try to think of things that I've learned.
Travis: When you learn how something works, a lot of times you want to apply that. I got interested in
art and I've always liked impressionism. When I went and looked at some impressionism artwork, I
thought, "Man, I want to do that." And so I went and took lessons to paint.
David: Oh cool.
Travis: Do you think that strange or is that something that you do also?
David: That makes perfect sense. The steps, understanding what's going on is one thing and it's a very
critical thing. But then actually doing the steps is very important too. I'm working on some course work
right now actually to teach people more step by step stuff like how to actually go about implementing
stuff, but it might be a few months down the pipe before that sort of stuff was out. And I know that I do
work the same way. Just as an entrepreneur, one thing that I've had a lot of trouble with is learning how
to delegate for example. And so right now I'm in "learn how to delegate mode".
Travis: Right.
David: And I've heard plenty of people talk about, you know, it was in the E-myth or something like
that. "You have to learn how to delegate; you have to learn how to separate yourself from the actual

doing of the business. But to actually learn doing it, I've got to do it, I've got to make that my singular
focus for like a week or two weeks. Try to figure out how I can delegate things. I've got to dig into my
brain. So it's definitely the way that my brain works and I think through the experience of learning things
I'll come with some new tools for helping get that next level of competency into people's brains.
Travis: Yeah, that's actually how you reach scale. In order to start growing your business you've got to
be able to scale it. And of course the only way that you can scale it is to delegate as much as possible.
In today's age it's much easier to delegate than it's ever been before, with oDesk, you know. I need
some people to come in. I try to weigh that problem myself. I like to learn so much that sometimes I get
in my own way and I'm so busy learning that I'm holding things up, right?
David: Yeah, exactly. And just to go back on this delegation thing, the problem I've had in the past is
that as I'm trying to learn how to delegate I'm also just trying to do things. And so then that's when I
would fall into this trap of like, "Oh, well it'll be easier for me to just do this than it would be to delegate."
By giving myself permission to say like, "Alright, this all I'm worried about this week, is learning how to
do less stuff myself and get other people to do these things so I can scale up, it's that important."
Travis: Right.
David: It's really driving into someone's brain, you have to drive it in your own brain, you have to really
concentrate and make that commitment.
Travis: Yeah, that's a problem, everybody has it. I've got an assistant and I've actually got her sifting
through resumes on oDesk so that I can delegate more things to new people.
David: Yeah.
Travis: So I've delegated her finding somebody to delegate stuff for me.
David: That's great.
Travis: But it is at times, I'm working so many hours and I've got 5 different projects because I get
bored at times working on the same thing that you're just not making the headway that you want to
make, right? So, I think that problem is present David with everybody. And just as long as you hold
yourself accountable for it and try to overcome it, and be persistent with it I think you can.
David: Yeah, personally I'm really reaching a breakthrough part with it with my business. The previous
6 years or so I had so many different things going on. Now, this design for hackers thing has become

such a successful part of my business that I'm like cutting off all of the excess fat and really focusing on
it. And realizing that if I wanted to carry out my mission I need to get better at this particular thing.
Travis: Right.
David: So, that's the hacker way, right? That's the bootstrap or entrepreneurial way, whatever it is that
you David need to do to take your business to the next level, you got to learn it.
Travis: Right. So what is that book bringing, who's it bringing to you?
David: What's that?
Travis: After writing that book, what type of business is it bringing to you?
David: So, I don't actually do freelance design for clients anymore since writing the book I've actually
committed myself to teaching other people about design, which is a completely different skill from
actually doing it.
Travis: Right.
David: Trying to make that entertaining content, makes that really edging stuff, bring a fresh, original
perspective to it. I've got an email list of about 30,000 people right now and there's a 12-week email
course I've got called Design Train that I'm getting right now. People got to wait list for that. And so, I'm
reading all sorts of interesting people from that. I do have one client which is a Silicon Valley startup but
that's just kind of a design advisorship thing where I help them with finding that right design direction,
it's going to help position them properly in the market.
Travis: Yeah.
David: So, I'm doing that sort of thing and doing like speaking and creating educational material, field
courses for people that are following my list.
Travis: I'm glad to hear that and what I like about that is so you shifted from a 1 to 1 model to a 1 to
many model, right?
David: Yeah. And I would always do that.

Travis: That's brilliant, and I think everybody listening should think on those terms. What caused you,
and let me explain. So 1 on 1, if you were doing design for somebody, and of course I know you know
this, but for everybody listening. If he's working 1 on 1 he can only help 1 person at a time. He may
have 10 clients but he's helping them 1 on 1. Whereas when you're teaching people how to do
something, he can teach 10,000 people to do something in a digital course that he puts together,
maybe 50 hours of his time and sells it over, and over, and over, and over, that's scale there. And so,
what caused that shift in your thinking for you to move to that model?
David: You know, I feel like it was kind of always there. Very early on in my design education I had sort
of developed a system or way that I understood things and a methodology for doing design that really
worked for me and that was kind of repeatable. And so, they started actually become sort of boring
doing design work. Now, I just have to say maybe just the particular style of design that I was doing,
had that methodology to it, and design can be endlessly fascinating. But for me personally I kind of
reached a point where it just wasn't that interesting to me to do more design and I felt like it would be
better to teach people. At the same time I never really got excited about doing the 1 on 1 consulting
stuff. Even when I started consulting I was always limiting myself, making sure that I'll only be available
to a certain number of hours a week so I could spend the rest of the time exploring other ways to build
a business. And just using that design skill that I had to create that value out of thin air. Using that
strength and try to find a way to build a business that wasn't based on that 1 to 1 model.
Travis: Very cool. It's interesting, and most people don't realize this. So, number 1, to be successful in
any business you need to become extremely competent in that, everybody understands that. But to
really become extremely successful, very rarely does it entail you doing what it is that made you
successful, does that make sense?
David: Yeah.
Travis: So, what got you your recognition into where you're at today is your design skills? But what will
make you wealthy is teaching design. So there was a paradigm shift right there in the middle, right?
David: Yeah. I did get recognition for designing early on in my career and then I just started adding sort
of skills where I got more interested in entrepreneurship.
Travis: Right.
David: And then that became something that gave me a unique perspective to speak to that
entrepreneurial audience too, and to understand their unique challenges. So yeah, it came really

naturally. And it was serendipitous, like I said, I wrote a blog post about this topic and people were just
rabid for it. It was very popular.
Travis: So you struck gold.
David: Yeah, and I tried so many different things throughout my journey, and I think there's a lot of
entrepreneurs out there who are like, "Oh, I failed at this and I failed at that, and I failed at this other
thing." It's almost like I never really kind of followed through far enough with any of the different things I
did where I could say, "Yeah, I totally failed at that."
Travis: Right.
David: You said it was just like, "We'll experiment here, a little experiment here, a little experiment
here." And that a took a few years until something really hit to where it was like, "Alright, there is no
doubt that I need to pursue this."
Travis: Right, very cool. We're running a little long on time, are you ready to transition to the lightning
round?
David: Oh, there's a lightning round, oh my gosh.
Travis: Yes sir.
David: Is that safe?
Travis: Yeah, well, I was going to ask. Put your seatbelt on buddy.
David: Okay.
Travis: We're getting closer to your chance to sing.
David: Okay.
Travis: Okay, do you need to do some push-ups, or pull-ups, or anything real quick to get ready for
this?
David: I'm already on my pull-up bar right now.
Travis: Cool. Your audio's still loud and clear, that's great, you must have a headset on.

David: Yeah, and some voice lessons.
Travis: Right. So, what book or program made an impact on you related to business that you'd
recommend and why?
David: Alright, now this might not sound that it's directly related to business that I assure you that it is.
Travis: Okay.
David: After I wrote my book or throughout the process of writing my book, I got really fascinated with
my brain and my mental energy. And so I got fascinated with neuroscience, so I started reading books
about neuroscience. And I read this one book called Your Brain at Work by David Rock, and it basically
explains the different regions of your brain, the different chemicals that are in your brain, and what all
those do. And then how you can use the understanding of that throughout your day to be more effective
and to manage your mental energy. That book has influenced me tremendously, Your Brain at Work.
Travis: I'm sorry; say that again, Your Brain at Work?
David: Yup, Your Brain at Work.
Travis: Very cool. I haven't read that, I'm going to put that on my list.
David: Definitely worth it.
Travis: What's one of your favorite tools or pieces of technology that you've recently discovered, if any,
that you'd recommend to other business owners and why?
David: We were talking a little bit about delegation a minute ago, and I've been messing around with
Fancy Hands. I don't know if you're familiar with that or not--
Travis: No.
David: But it is an on-demand personal assistant. Basically, buy a plan, it's like $65 for 25 tasks a
month, and you basically have an on-demand personal assistant. You have an iPhone app you can just
talk into it and say, "Yeah, winter's coming, I need some warm pants. Can you look up some warm
pants for me?" And they'll do the research for you. And so it's been a nice way for me to play around
and get better at delegating stuff, and I think I'll definitely be using it in the future.

Travis: Very cool.
David: Fancy pants, order me--
Travis: Fancy hands.
David: Fancy hands.
Travis: Oh, Fancy hands. (Laughing) Fancy pants. Okay, Fancy hands, order me a pizza, vegan.
David: Yeah, you could do that. They'll do it.
Travis: Just not Fancy pants, its Fancy hands.
David: Yeah, they don't like it when you call them Fancy pants.
Travis: Yes, they may get mad at you right?
David: They take offense.
Travis: Yeah, right. What famous quote would best summarize your belief or attitude in business?
David: Yeah. I've been asked this one before, I'm just going to go ahead and say the same quote
because I'm not a huge quote person but this one just always sticks out to me. From the Steve Jobs,
Stanford commencement address. "You can't connect the dots moving forward, you can only connect
them looking back." And what that means to me is that you might be really curious, or you might feel
sort of a burning sensation to do something, to follow a certain path. And it might not seem like it makes
any sense, but if you follow, that it's really amazing where that will put you. You always end up in really
interesting places when you follow your curiosity. I've found it's worked for me.
Travis: Wow, that's interesting. And I've hears something very similar. Looking forward seems very
chaotic but when you look back on it, it seems like this beautiful, planned out maze, right?
David: Yeah, right.
Travis: But yeah, so just basically to trust your intuition, right? Is that what you're saying?

David: Yeah. Trust your intuition and your curiosity. Like when I wrote that first blog post is I didn't
know what I was doing. I remember having friends and family kind of being like, "Why are you doing
this blog thing?"
Travis: Right.
David: And I was like, I don't know, I want to.
Travis: Yeah.
David: Well, I did.
Travis: Yeah, a journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step and that was the first step for you,
right?
David: Yeah, it was.
Travis: Do you have any superpowers that you can share with us?
David: Super powers.
Travis: You may not be comfortable in telling everybody, I don't know, although it's completely up to
you.
David: Yeah, gosh, someone might divulge probably. Let's see here. Super power-- I can remember
the lyrics to songs really well, and I think that's probably one of my super powers.
Travis: Well, that's a cool power, now that you're starting to sing.
David: Yeah, I know, I'm sure my first album will be out any day now.
Travis: Right. So how do people connect with you?
David: So, I'm really active on Twitter, the handle is @k-a-d-a-v-y, and my book is at
designforhackers.com, they can get all the fonts you'll ever need cheat sheet. And get on my email list
where I send out a ton of free information all about design and learning design.
Travis: Very cool. Hey, can you hangout for a couple of minutes?

David: Absolutely.
Travis: I'm going to wrap things up real quick. So when I list the website, I'm going to leave off the .com
part and you can sing the .com, you know like the old Yahoo way, right?
David: Sure.
Travis: So, I'm setting it up and when I just hit that URL I'll leave the .com part off for you, okay?
David: You sing it, man.
Travis: But you're brilliant, a lot of fun, I love it when people are laid back enough to laugh and have a
little fun, and act silly.
David: Yeah, great.
Travis: You know, while doing the things that we love to do at the same time, right?
David: Absolutely man, that's what it's all about. Why you do it if it's not fun?
Travis: Yeah, so you rock David. Listen, I want to remind you guys that you can find all of the links to
the books and the resources mentioned in the show in the show notes. Just go to
rockstarentrepreneurnetwork-- You got to do the .com
David: .com
Travis: Oh, we're going to have to do that one over. Just go to rockstarentrepreneurnetwork--
David: .com
End of Interview
Travis: It's a brand new website that we're building out that's completely focused on giving you
resources to grow your business. Now before I close the show today, I want to remind you that building
a profitable business is a formula, this is something that I've been talking about for quite a while. And
maybe a better way of saying it to be more literal or more clear and concise is it's really a series of

formulas. And as you apply and adopt those formulas your business becomes predictably profitable,
and it starts building long-term wealth. This is what moves you into a position to help others which is
what I believe is part of the responsibility of entrepreneurs, and really the driving force behind why I
created the show for you.
Now, if you haven't reached that level of consistency yet with your business and you'd like to learn how
it's done, we've put together a free program called the Business Breakthrough Sweepstakes, where we
focus on teaching the formulas in a simple step by step format. This is what I've used to build several,
tiny, little local companies to multi, multi-million dollar businesses. Also, to add a little fun and
excitement to the program, if you join the sweepstakes you'll have a chance to win $73,000 in cash and
prizes, plus my personal Lamborghini. One of the things that I don't mention very often that I want to
insert in here because it just come to mind is I want to stress to you that I don't have any education, no
formal schooling, no background in any of this stuff. So, these things, while they’re not easy, it’s not
something that you snap your fingers and it are over and done with tomorrow. You don't need any
special DNA, or schooling, or background to build an extremely profitable business that changes your
life and changes the life of people that you come in contact with. So, I just want to pre-qualify that you
don't need to be some genius with special education to learn these things and apply it. I'm not, and I've
got there. So, anyways, for more information go to rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com and click on the
sweepstakes promotion.
Now, my quote for today comes from Robert Collier, and the quote reads, "If you don't make things
happen, then things will happen to you." This is Travis Lane Jenkins signing off for now, to your
incredible success my friend, take care.

How We Can Help You
We know that finding someone that you can trust online today is hard and that so many “so called
gurus” are self-‐appointed and have never really even done what they teach you to do. That’s exactly
why we created the Double Your Profits Business Accelerator. This is an exclusive offer for our fans at
a fraction of its normal cost.
Here's what to expect. We'll Schedule a 'One on One' private session, where we'll take the time to dive
deep into your business and tell you what is missing, so that you can have your best year ever!
We'll do this by performing a S.W.O.T. Analysis. This tells us your Strengths, Weaknesses,
Opportunities and Threats within your business.
This will be an eye opener for YOU, for several reasons, however some of the most common reasons
are.
As the 'Business Owner' it’s difficult to see the big picture of your own business because you’re in the
middle of a daily management.
And you are too emotionally involved to completely impartial.
This is a common problem for EVERY business owner. It doesn’t matter if you are a one-man army, or
an army of 150, the problem is still the same.
Travis Lane Jenkins
Business Mentor-Turn Around Specialist
Radio Host of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show
“Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs That Grow Your Business"

The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 084 David Kadavy

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