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INTERVIEW:
Shawn Wells, MPH, RD
Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN has a unique blend of knowledge in the field of perfor-
mance nutrition and supplementation. Mr. Wells attended UNC-Chapel Hill, earning
a Master’s degree in Nutrition and minor in Exercise Science. His education along
with credentials of Registered Dietitian, Certified Sport Nutritionist (CISSN), and
board member of the ISSN, distinguished him as an expert in sports nutrition.
Shawn Wells has forgotten more about supplements than most people will ever
know. Here’s part two of his wide-ranging ERD interview.
I don’t think most people know what goes into actually making a supplement. It’s not like being a
mad scientist, just throwing different things in test tubes and seeing what happens. How would you
describe your actual day to day job?
Busy, very busy. Like 50 Cent once said “‘I don’t sleep, I might miss the opportunity to make a dream
become a reality.” Like any job, to get to a point of “success” in the field you really need to be 1.
Passionate 2. “play” outside your box 3. work hard 4. continue to learn 5. surround yourself with great
people…which is all really about #1. Being passionate. I despise hearing about supplement company
CEOs, formulators, sales reps, etc. that don’t use their own products, or even supplements. They liter-
ally only look at it like dollars and cents. And that is not a recipe for success. If you do not believe in
your products in your company, why should anyone else?
But here’s the thing, there’s SO much more than the ingredients and dosing them the right way and
even knowing the studies, etc. Formulating is knowing marketing, finance, quality control, custom-
er service, sales, sourcing, distribution, etc. You need to be cross-functional in your company and
understand relevance and sales. While I said it shouldn’t be ALL about dollars and cents…dollars and
cents matters…of course. You need to meet the COGS (cost of goods sold) for finance to approve
your formula. Bottom line. It needs to hit a profit margin to make the company money.
Flavor/taste (organoleptic)…so do you know about masking agents, acidulates and what flavors need
what acidulates (e.g. citric acid with citrus flavors), sweeteners and how they can work together (e.g.

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fructose is a front end sweetener, while stevia is a back-
end sweetener), same with flavors from various flavor
houses as they can “hit” in front or back and comple-
ment each other.
Solubility is often underestimated for Ready to Mix
(RTM) products like proteins and preworkouts and
mesh size/particle size
of the formula and each
ingredient. How many
bad reviews do you see for
products on this alone?
Doing particle size stud-
ies and solubility studies
are critical before going
to market. Mesh size in
proteins can be vastly
different-- one iWPC80
(instantized whey protein
concentrate) could be a .22
and another a .34. This is
a 50% difference in mesh
size. This can be the dif-
ference between the right
fill in the tub or the tub
overflowing with literally
50% more volume of the
same weight/mass of pro-
tein. This means that scoop could be 50% less protein
than it should be despite being right on the scale and
the flavors or sweeteners wouldn’t be right per scoop.
Many companies and who’s ever doing their sourcing
look at these ingredients as commodities. They’re not.
At all. This can make for radically different product
batch to batch…lot to lot. This leads into scale up of a
product from benchtop in the lab, to scale up blender
or capping, piloting (smallest run on full-scale equip-
ment), to full production. Analytically, organolepitcally,
stability-wise it needs to be the same. If not, go back to
the last step and rework. And, yes, this adds a great deal
of time to the process of going to market, but it also
decreases the chance of falling off the market.
Then knowing blend order, blend time on the batch
record, blender fill volume, and RPMs of the blend-
er all can make a huge difference in how the finished
good turns out. You could have hot and cold spots with
100mgs of caffeine and 600mgs of caffeine…that’s not
good! Same with flavor, etc.
Whether ingredients are
hydroscopic (aka hygro-
scopic – as in moisture
“loving”) that may cause
clumping without proper
excipients/conditioning
and desiccants.
We can go back to all the
sourcing and negotia-
tions that go on to get the
best formula. You need to
negotiate best price, and
that means going direct
and not through distribu-
tors. I go direct and have a
few hundred vetted suppli-
ers across all ingredients
out of 10s of thousands.
Bad customer service,
bad pricing, poor quality control/reliability of product,
and of course testing out. As I mentioned above, with
HPLC markers or something of the like. Most ingredi-
ents don’t test out and therefore most products do not
test out. But many companies don’t know to test beyond
the paperwork they’re sent or what testing methods are
most valid. How often are you testing these ingredients
and finished goods? Constantly validating…
Then there’s stability as I discussed. How long does it
last as an ingredient and a finished good? Whatever
your shelf life is, it has to meet or exceed label claim for
that shelf life.
What about
the marketability
of the formula?
What is the
hook or angle?
The story of the
product? It needs
a reason to be.

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What about the research as I mentioned above and the
quality of it? Human data in the right dose, right form,
right delivery, right frequency in a healthy population…
What about the marketability of the formula? What is
the hook or angle? The story of the product? It needs
a reason to be. Understanding the competitive set in
the marketplace (and who your competitors are SKU
to SKU is essential). Also knowing where this product
fits in your own portfolio. You don’t want it cannibal-
izing sales or overlapping. It needs to stand on its own
and complement the portfolio. There needs to be data
to show the customer wants this product with trend
information, marketplace data from journals (NBJ,
Euromonitor, etc.), focus groups, etc.
Knowing legality of ingredients and risk assessments
of formulas is part of the process as well. Are your
ingredients GRAS (generally recognized as safe) if it’s a
food product (nutrition fact panel) or DSHEA (Dietary
Supplements Health and Education Act) compliant for
a supplement facts panel? Then there’s NDI’s. Knowing
the litigation trends around ingredients or categories
becomes a risk tolerance exercise. How much are you
willing to risk on lawsuits, FDA enforcement, brand
reputation, etc.?
So like Ben Pakulski said, “You can’t do what I do.”
Haha. BPak’s a good friend…so I like the quote.
There’s a lot more to being a formulator than meets the
eye.
Leucine is a nutrient that’s always popping up in
research, and for good reason. What can you tell our
readers about new research on leucine and related
nutrients, and when they might be worth considering
as a supplement?
Well let’s talk about leucine content in protein first as it
is a big frustration and one of the biggest scams in sup-
plement history. This was one that Dr. Rob Wildman
and I exposed when we went a very different direction
than the industry with protein…tackling the problem
known as “Amino/Nitrogen spiking”. By now most
know about it, but 3 years ago, we drove the message to
labs, to forums, to reps, to distributors, etc. Having the
consumer look for a “blend”. Proprietary blends that
include taurine, glycine, creatine, arginine, etc. None of
these are protein. They are aminos and amino deriva-
tives. Glycine and Taurine are less than half the price of
protein, but test out with nitrogen tests as protein (as a
nitrogen/Kjedahl test “knows” no different). Even better
they look like pure protein, but have no carbs and no
fat (again at half the price). Creatine and Arginine have
three nitrogen atoms and test out much higher gram for
gram than even pure protein…but you can’t even begin
to construe creatine as protein. So this is pure scam
(and it’s less than half the cost of protein as well). So
these labels with sky-high protein, no carbs, and cheap
25g of whey should be 2.8g of
leucine. If they say 2.0g or 1.8g or
whatever well they’re “honestly”
scamming you.

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price…well this is how it’s done. Some of the ones I’ve
tested had less than half of the protein they claimed on
label. HUGE SCAM. Class action lawsuits are being
mentioned. Why? You paid for protein? And that 25g
of whey protein should have 2.8g of leucine, enough
to trigger Muscle Protein Synthesis (the reason you’re
taking the protein). But what if it has 1.4g? No MPS. No
Gains. Less Recovery. Wasted $$$.
So looking for the Amino Acid Profile is another thing
to look for on an honest label. 25g of whey should be
2.8g of leucine. If they say 2.0g or 1.8g or whatever well
they’re “honestly” scamming you. I guess that gets more
points than not listing it…
As far as leucine and its metabolites, Dr. Gabe Wilson
presented on this very topic and the Annual ISSN
Conference in Tampa. There’s fascinating leucine resis-
tance with age, requiring higher leucine to trigger/
optimize MPS. This leads to sarcopenic obesity and
body composition changes (i.e. more adipose, less
LBM). We talked about an “Anabolic Phase Shift effect”.
It has been shown that younger people need less leu-
cine being more “leucine sensitive”. What we proposed
is happening is actually around insulin sensitivity and
androgens. A gorilla has massive amounts of muscle
mass and eats vegetation. This may be the case due
to very high testosterone and extremely high insulin
sensitivity. Theoretically, you could take a 60-year-old
male and put them on HRT and metformin and restore
leucine sensitivity. Bodybuilders that have elevated tes-
tosterone (whether exogenous or endogenous) and high
GLUT4 activity and insulin sensitivity may need very
little leucine to trigger MPS, though they’d need more
protein as substrate. Leucine and its metabolites (HICA,
KIC, HMB) have a growing pool of data showing they
are critical to anabolism and anti-catabolism. There
have been proposed synergies which we discussed as
well too. I can provide our slide presentation if a reader
is interested, where we delve much deeper. Dr. Gabe
Wilson was also the pivotal researcher finding that
energetics are the reason for the 3 hours MPS effect of
“refraction” despite elevated plasma leucine. It’s a costly
energetic process depleting ATP. A dose of BCAAs or
carbohydrate can restore MPS …it’s fascinating stuff.
Groundbreaking really.
One of my favorite sayings is “Teach thy tongue to say
‘I do not know’, and thou shalt progress.” What do you
wish was known about nutrition and/or supplementa-
tion, but hasn’t been researched enough yet?
Nutrigenomics. Crucial. Just like we see in studies with
knockout mice related to a certain gene…there are so
many people drugs, nutrients, exercises do not work
the same way in. Further still, genetics are not estab-
lished at birth and remain unchanging. They evolve
constantly, adding complexity to the equation. But this
is a big one to unlocking true potential of individuals
living and functioning optimally.
I am a huge ketogenic proponent and all of that data
is awe-inducing with implications beyond the well-es-
tablished weight loss and epilepsy interventions, but
cancer, Alzheimer’s, autism, Parkinson’s, and more are
being investigated. Even more interesting is supplemen-
tal ketones and how exogenous ketones can impact this
equation.
There are a few concepts that repeatedly come up about
protein, and one is the value of fast vs slow protein and
carbs. How much attention should the average lifter pay
to absorption speed, versus things like bioavailability,
amino acid composition, denaturation, etc?
One last question. With the microbiome being such an
important emerging topic, have you seen much on the
effect of protein on gut microbiota?
You’re absolutely right. The gut microbiome has become
been the subject of extensive research over the past
couple of years…and rightfully so. Our gut contains
thousands of bacterial species that can have both ben-
eficial and harmful effects on human health. In fact,

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Zhang et al 2009 even suggested that disruption to gut
microbiota can significantly impact chronic inflamma-
tory diseases (i.e. irritable bowel and Crohn’s) and even
play a part in the development of obesity. Thus, recently
we have seen a huge burst in prebiotic and probiot-
ic supplementation to help balance and enhance our
microbiota.
As far as the impact of certain nutritional compositions
on the gut microbiota, the evidence is emerging. In
fact, Turnbaugh et al 2009 found that animals switching
from a low-fat, plant polysaccharide-rich diet to a high-
fat/high-sugar “Western” diet “shifted the structure of
the microbiota within a single day, changed the rep-
resentation of metabolic pathways in the microbiome,
and altered microbiome gene expression.” In addition,
David et al 2014 examined a plant vs animal based diet.
Both diets consumed less than baseline however there
were no differences in total calories between the con-
ditions. The meat-based diet ate on average 87 more
grams of protein and 294g less carbohydrates than the
plant based condition. The animal-based diet was asso-
ciated with increased expression of genes for vitamin
biosynthesis, the degradation of polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons, which are carcinogenic compounds
produced during the charring of meat. Additionally,
during the plant diet, they became better at breaking
down carbohydrates; during the animal diet, protein
digestion was their specialty. Overall, these findings
indicate that the human gut microbiome can rapidly
switch between herbivorous and carnivorous functional
profiles, and may reflect past selective pressures during
human evolution.
Lastly, a study by Hooda et al 2012 in kittens found that
a “higher protein” diet could have negative effects on
the health supporting bacteria (i.e Bifidobacterium).
The authors claim that high protein intake may lead to
an “increased flow of undigested protein to the colon,
which is subjected to fermentation and the production
of harmful nitrogenous metabolites.” However, it is
important to remember that cats differ metabolically
from humans so it is tough to draw conclusions from
this study.
Interestingly enough, a brand new study by Clarke et
al (2014) found a correlation between exercise, pro-
tein consumption, and higher levels of gut bacteria
(the beneficial kind). These researchers also noted a
reduction in gut inflammation, potentially due to the
diversity of the gut. I know there are some clinical and
[...] the human
gut microbiome
can rapidly
switch between
herbivorous
and carnivorous
functional
profiles, and
may reflect
past selective
pressures
during human
evolution.

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other trials going on to currently assess the impact of
protein intake on the gut microbiota. There is some pre-
liminary research to suggest consumption of certain pre
and probiotics combined with protein may help with
uptake and could therefore augment some training and/
or recovery responses. Like I said, there are trials that I
know of going on right now so we should have a better
picture soon .
So to answer the question simply: there jury is still out
there on protein’s direct effect on the gut microbiota.
What I can say is this: your body is very flexible and
does a good job adapting, yet there may come a point
where you disrupt the homeostasis of the gut micro-
biome and need to address it. Prebiotics and probiotic,
staying away from a ton of processed sugar, and avoid
combining high fat with high carbohydrates (i.e pan-
cakes with butter) may be viable options.
As a cat fan, I cannot condone the Hooda 2012 study
on kittens. But otherwise, this has been quite an infor-
mative interview, and we at Examine look forward to
upcoming research on protein and the gut microbiome,
as well as leucine and the other topics you discussed.
Thanks Shawn! ◆
Mr. Wells has held the role of Chief Clinical Dietitian with over a decade in
acute and skilled nursing care, grounding his ethics and practice of patient
focused care. Fulfilling the position of CEO of Zone Halo Research, a consult-
ing group for supplement formulations, he gained significant notoriety in the
industry.
As an accomplished author, formulator and clinician, in 2011, Shawn took
his experience and passion to become Director of R&D at Dymatize Nutrition.
Dymatize Nutrition, now owned by Post, has cemented its role the global
leader in finished product research and innovation with over 200 products in
more than 50 countries.
Shawn was recently acquired by the top non-GMO & natural dietary supple-
ment company in the industry, BioTRUST Nutrition, as their Vice President of
Research and Development and has since been promoted to Chief Scientific
Officer over the Compliance, R&D, and Quality Control departments. Mr. Wells
travels the globe looking for the next great ingredient, doing research, and
assembling innovative formulations with experience in every channel of
distribution/sales.
For more on Shawn Wells, MPH, RD, CISSN, find him on LinkedIn.