Reboot Podcast #53 — Transform your hustle

Reboot053_Transform_Your_Hustle_transcript
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JerryColonna:
Cat, Brad, it'sgreat to see youbothhere today.Before we getstarted,if we
can justtake a momentandeach of you introduce yourselves.Catherine,who
are you?
Catherine Hoke : Catherine Hoke orCat, FounderandCEO of DefyVentures,anonprofit
organizationthattransformsthe hustle of menandwomenwithcriminal
histories.I'masocial entrepreneur.Ihave nofinancial upside,butotherthan
that, I'm like aregularentrepreneur.
JerryColonna: Wow.Good. Brad?
Brad Feld: Brad Feld.I'ma partnerat FoundryGroup.I'm co-founderof Techstars.I
investinearlystage companies.I've writtenabunchof books.I recently
joinedthe boardof DefyVenturesatCat andthe board's invitation.
JerryColonna: Oh,fantastic.
Catherine Hoke : Big win.
JerryColonna: I'm reallyexcitedabouthavingyouonthe show.It's a little bitdifferentto
have twofolkshere.Iknow that Defyisprobablygoingtobe somethingthat's
newto manyof the folkswhoare listening.Ithoughtitwouldbe goodtotell
us a little bitmore aboutwhatDefyisand more important,yourstory,your
journey,Cat,andwhyit's importanttoyou. Give me the missionline again.
That 10 secondline thatyouused.
Catherine Hoke : We transformthe hustle of menandwomenwithcriminal histories. We work
withpeople inside prisonandoutside prison.Youcan thinkof us as an
incubatorof businessesandof raw talent.We come alongside people who
have failedbigtime publicly,whooftenthinkthattheyare failuresand
cannot getback on theirfeet because societywritesthese peopleoff
sometimesforamistake thattheymade 30 yearsago. Theysee themas
nothingmore thanjusta label.
JerryColonna: Right.
Catherine Hoke : We come alongside them, shine themupandhelpputthembackin the fight.
We use entrepreneurshipasatool that bringspeople togethertocelebrate
success.People like Bradandyouand many otherentrepreneursandVCs.
Entrepreneurshipisthe carrotthat we dangle thatgets people excited.The
more importantworkof DefyVenturesisholisticlife transformationand
makingpeople feel humanforthe firsttime inalongtime.Makingthemsee
that theyhave worthand potential andthattheycan do itand bringing
healinginthe livesof people whohave gone throughalot.

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JerryColonna: You know,I'll ownupto the fact that we metCat abouttwo yearsago I think.
You broughtsome of the folkswhohave come throughyourprogram intomy
office.We dida talkthere.Iwill tell youthattheirfacesare still etchedinmy
brain.They're still etchedinmyheart.There'sjusta guy,a Latino man.I don't
evenrememberhisname.
Catherine Hoke : Ellioy?
JerryColonna: Ellioy.Ijustrememberhistears.
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.
JerryColonna: I rememberthe sensationthathe hadwhenI spoke tohim notas a former
inmate,butas an entrepreneur.Youcouldviscerallyfeel thisexperience of
beingrespondedtoasanotherhumanbeing.DidIget that right?
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.They're so usedto beingthrownawaybypeople andlookeddown
uponthat thenwhenpeople like youcome andsay,"I getit. I've made
mistakestoo,"andlookat themas a human being,it'sthe mostempowering,
life-givingexperience thattransforms.
JerryColonna: I thinkitwouldbe helpful if the group...If the audience reallyunderstooda
little bitaboutyourstoryand how you came to do Defybecause I'mgoingto
name what theycan't see.Youpresentasa typical,capable,privilegedwhite
woman.What the hell are youdoinghangingoutwiththese folks?
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.I neverina millionyearsthoughtIwouldendupdoingthiswork.When
I was 12 yearsold,a reallygoodfriendof mine wasbrutallymurderedbytwo
16-year-oldboys.Theywere sentencedtofive and10 yearseach.Theywere
sentencedasjuveniles.TodayI'mthankful thattheywere sentencedaskids
but whenIwas 12, I thoughttheyshouldgetthe deathpenalty.Iwasso
withoutanymercyor grace. Lock themup andthrow awaythe key.The fact
that I do thisworknow was surprisingtome.WhenI was26, I was invitedon
a prisonvisit.Atthe time I wasworkinginprivate equity.WhenIgotinvited
on a prisonvisit,itwasinTexas.I was livinginNew YorkCity.Ihad to flytoa
prison. Inevercaredto go to Texas.I nevercaredto go to prison.My first
thoughtwas,"No thanks."
The personwhoinvitedme startedtotell me that somany people ...Not
everybodyinprisonbutsomanywant nothingmore thana secondchance.
Today I've learnedtosee thatit's reallyabouta legitimatefirstchance.
JerryColonna: I was justgoingto say,it's probablymore a firstchance.
Catherine Hoke : For manyif you saw how theygrew up.I endedupsayingyesreluctantlyand
not withthe purest of motives.IwouldsayI wentjustoutof curiosity.I

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actuallythoughtI wasgoingon thiswildzootourto see caged animals.She
spoke aboutit-
JerryColonna: How kindof you.
Catherine Hoke : I know.
JerryColonna: I'm beingsarcastic.
Catherine Hoke : I know.
Catherine Hoke : I thinkbecause myheartwas sohardenedandI had such an uglyperspective
of people inprison,that'swhatsmackedme inthe face on my firstprison
visit.Icriedmy waythroughthe three daysinTexas,notbecause I feltsorry
for the people Imet.Ifeltsorryfor myself,how assomeone wholovesgrace
and isgrateful formanysecondchancesthat I've had in mylife,how Icould
be so hardenedandhow my experience of one couldleadme towrite off
millionsof people.Onthatfirstvisit,the firstpersonImet,hisname was
Johnny.WhenJohnnywaseightyearsold,he saw hisgrandfathermurderhis
fatherinfront of him.UnfortunatelyJohnny'sstoryisnotveryunique.Most
of ourguys losttheirinnocence whentheywere 10yearsold or six.Not
shockingly,Johnnyjumpedintoagang and startedsellingdrugs.Bythe age of
18, he was lockedup.
I askedmyself the question,"If Ihadbeenraisedinthese circumstances,how
wouldInot endup on thispathtoo?" That ledme to have seriousempathy
for thispopulation.Thentothisday,Iam fascinatedbythe entrepreneurial
storiesof the people thatIwork with.Irealizedonthatvisitforthe firsttime
that manypeople whoare incarceratedare natural born hustlers.Theyare
actuallyincredible entrepreneurs.Again,notall of thembutI learnedforthe
firsttime as a white privilegedgirl thatmanygangsand drug ringsare runby
boardsof directors.Theyhave managementteamsandtheyhave
bookkeepersandaccountantsandthey're for-profitorganizations.They
understandfirstmoveradvantagesandeverybusinessprinciple.They
weren'tgreatat riskmanagementbecause theyall gotbustedandendedup
behindbars,butI asked,"Whatwouldhappenif theytransformedtheir
hustle?"
That ledme to jumpshipfrommy fancyNew York job,give upmy everything,
all of myfinances,cashoutmy 401(k) to go all in,move to Texasand start my
firstorganizationoutthere.
JerryColonna: Right.That's not the whole story.

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JerryColonna: Right.Up until that point,itfeelslikeMotherTheresa.
Catherine Hoke : I'm not.
JerryColonna: None of us are.Not evenMotherTheresa.What'sthe otherhalf of the story?
To me,knowingabit aboutthis... Thisisa familiartermtothe folkswho
listentothispodcast.The experience of yourfriend'smurderwasone of your
superpowersbutthere's anothersuperpowerhere.Isn'tthere?Thatiswhat
happened.What'sthe restof the story?
Catherine Hoke : My ownfailure Iguessismyown superpower.Iledthatorganizationcalled
PrisonEntrepreneurshipPrograminTexasforfive years.We achieved
incrediblesuccessandstatisticsthatwowedeverybody.ThenIscrewedup
everything.Ihadbeenmarriedfornine years.Iwasdivorcedatthe age of 31,
five yearsintoleadingthisorganization.Mydivorce came unexpectedlyto
me.Thenin the wake of my divorce,Imade decisionsthatIregretto thisday.
I endeduphavingsome relationshipswithpeople whohadbeenreleased
fromprison.Theywere graduatesfrommyownprogram. It wasnot illegal
but I knewbetter.Iknew thatthe Texasprisonsystemwouldnotappreciate
my choices.
I wentthroughan extremelypublicshaming.Deeplyhumiliatingresignation
process.TheyforcedmyresignationafterIwashonestaboutmy choices.My
newswentoutinthe newsnationallyandthenglobally.WhenIsaw what
people were writingaboutme onthe internet...Iusedto ask people,"What
woulditbe like if youwere onlyknownforthe worstthingyou've done?"
That became mystory. I wasso ashamedthatI wantedto justweardark
sunglassesandahat and hide.Itwas so badI triedto kill myself.Isaw no
visionformyself beyondwhatIhaddone.I saw itas ... I feel likethisworkis
totallymycalling.Iknow it'smy calling.Iscrewedupmy calling,mylife
purpose.Ilosteverything.I've neverhadaplan B. The organizationthatI
startedinTexaswas my everythingandIlostmy everything.Ilostmyidentity
as a wife,asa leaderandI letso many people down.Iwentthroughthe
deepestdepressionof mylife.Thatwassevenyearsago.Icouldn'tsee a
future.
JerryColonna: I knewsome partsof that story.I didn'tknow the fullnessof thatstory.When
we firstmetand youtold me some of this,it alwaysstruckme as illustrative
of thisdeepwell of strengththatisevidentwhenyoucome intoaroom.
That's what I meanwhenItalkabout superpowerhere.It'sunderstanding
something.Thisisabitof a projectiononmypart. Rejectitif it'snot true,but
I imagine whenyougoquietandyourememberthatfeeling,there'san
experience thatyouhave whenyou're facingthe nextJohnnythat'sinfront
of you.

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JerryColonna: You're nodding.Doesthatresonate?
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.No,I believe thatI'ma lotbetterat doingmy workthe secondtime
aroundbecause I usedtoalwayspreachgrace but I didn'tapplyitto myself.I
didn'tunderstandit.Now thatI have beengivenareal secondchance,I was
lovedbackto life.Ihaven'tbeenincarceratedmyself butnow thatI've had
such a personal experience withshame andself-hatredandall that,Ican just
relate totheirstoriesandtheyfeel like Icanrelate.TheysayI'm one of them.
JerryColonna: Yeah.
Catherine Hoke : The compassionandempathythatI have andthat I bringnot onlyto the
people thatwe serve butalsoto myteam ...I am more human toa lotof
otherpeople because of this.EvenwhenIspeaktoaudiencesof
entrepreneurs,Ithinkeveryone canrelate to a storyof failure andfeelingnot
goodenoughand lettingeveryonedown.Because mine wasinthe news,I
actuallyhave the freedomof talkingaboutitwhereasalotof people just
have to keeptheirsecrets.Theyfeelliketheyhave tokeepthemsuppressed
because if theycame out ...I meanwhat leaderhasn'tdone somethingat
some pointthatif itcame out,it mightforce yourresignationorcause great
shame?A lot of people live inthatsecrecy,whichcausesmore shame.Today
I have actual freedomand joy,eventhoughIstill have deeppainaboutmy
past.
JerryColonna: Yeah.
Catherine Hoke : That's a giftthat I have.
JerryColonna: That's right.That's a giftthatyou have that yougive to othersbecause you
connectwiththat humanexperience.There'sathoughtthat comesinwhich
isbetterhumansmake betterentrepreneurs.Beingmore humanisthe path.
Beingmore real.Beingconnectedtothe realityof yourownexperience
makesus betterentrepreneursanditmakesusbetterleaders.
Catherine Hoke : Aftermyresignation,one of the mediastoriesthatcame outaboutme was
titledIthink"Human,All TooHuman."
JerryColonna: Yeah.We shouldturnthat intoa tattoo.
Catherine Hoke : Nota bad ideaformy nextone.
JerryColonna: That's right.One last piece andthenI'dlike toexpandthe conversationand
reallyinvite Bradinandtalka little bitaboutthe recentexperience.Many
people knowI'ma BuddhistandI oftenthinkaboutBuddhism.Myfavorite
Buddhistbodhisattvasaint isaguynamedMilarepa.Milarepawatchedhis

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familygetmurderedwhenhe wasaboy.He himself became suchanotorious
murdererthathe wouldwearthe fingerbonesof hisvictimsinanecklace
aroundhisneck.He was transformedwhenhe metMarpa.Marpa usedto
kickhisass. He became one of the great saintsof Buddhism.He'swritten
enormouspoetryandsongs.The songsof Milarepaare incrediblypowerful.
He's the keycharacter inone of my favorite storiesaboutfacingourown
demonsandputtingourhead up to the mouth of the demon.The worst
possible thing.Inthiscase itmightbe shame andhumiliationandsaying,"Eat
me if youwish."Transformingthatexperience.Milarepacame intomymind
whenyouwere tellingyourstoryandthe storyof some of the folksthat you
workwith.
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.I thinkone of myfavorite reasonsforworkingwithourmenand
womenisthey're sohungryand coachable andpartlybecause of theirshame.
That leadsto real humility.Theydon'tevenknow theirincredible talents.
Theydon't recognize itbecause they'vebeensothrownaway,butthenthe
resultinghungerfromthatleadstothe most beautifulthings.Thatcomes
fromthe deeppain.
JerryColonna: Yeah.Well there'salsoa commonelement.Brad,youandI didthisevent
yesterday.We hada local supportgroup.A couple of the folksthere spoke to
the fact that a numberof the parents,fathersinparticular,were alcoholics.
Here'sthe truismthat my partner, KhalidHalimoftenspeaksto,whichisthat
entrepreneursandnow itsoundslike folkswhoare inthe prisonsystem
share a particularcommontrait,whichwe refertoas premature promotion.
Theyare thrustintobeingan adultlongbefore theyare preparedtobe that.
Oftentimesthey're thrustintopositionsof havingtotake care of.That can be
a powerthat doesdestructive things,butitcan alsobe a powerthatcreates
powerful constructive thingsinpeople'slives.Itturnsthemintoearlyleaders.
Doesthisresonate withyouinyourexperience,Catherine?
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.Our guyswere prettymuchall raisedinpovertyandviolence,which
created...It forcedthemintoscrappinessandhustlingaschildren.Theydid
not have childhoods.Theyweresellingthings,illegal things-
JerryColonna: Justto survive.
Catherine Hoke : Yeah,to survive andfinda way.
Catherine Hoke : That's whythey're natural entrepreneurs,becausetheywere notspoon-fed.
Theyhad to finda wayto earlyinlife,butthatwhenrefinedtogolegal,itcan
alsoproduce such amazingoutcomes.
JerryColonna: Right.Let's expandthe circle alittle bit.Brad,thankyoufor givingCatthe
space because I thinkthatthat story isa reallyimportantstory.Iknow that
youhad a recentexperienceandyouspoke aboutit.What wasthe

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experience?Whathappened?
Brad Feld: The specificexperience thatwasincrediblypowerful forme wasspendinga
day inprisonwithDefywithabout50 EITs,entrepreneurs-in-training,and
about75 volunteersthatcame on a tripthat was sponsoredbyme and Mark
SusterfromUpfront.It's actuallylinkedtoa couple of thingsthathappenedin
abouta three-monthperiod.MyfirstintroductiontoCatandDefywas
throughTechstars.Last year Techstarsstarteda foundationandwe give
grants to otherorganizations,nonprofits,tohelpincrease diversityin
entrepreneurship.Ourfirstbatchof five grants,one of themwas to Defy.As
the board of the Techstarsfoundationwasmakingthe grantsanddeciding
whatto do, eachof us adoptedanorganization.There were twoof usthat
signedupforDefy,me and JeremyShure,whoisone of the otherboard
membersof the foundation.Ihadn'tmetCat. I wasn'tpart of the decision
processbecause Allie,who-
JerryColonna: Allie Berman?
Brad Feld: Allie Bermanranthe foundationinthe firstyearof the foundation.She did
the whole process.Itjustcapturedmy imagination.Ihadhad two
experienceswiththe prisonsystemuptothatpointin mylife.Ihave two
friendswhowere bothincarcerated.Bothwere white-collarcrimes.One was
checkhiding.The otherwastax evasion,butthe personwhowas
incarceratedwasnot the tax evader.Itwas the ownerof the companyhe was
the presidentof.Itwasverycomplicatedinteractions.IhadbeentoBoulder
Jail a handful of times.Ihad beendowntoFlorence andthe prisonin
Florence,butthe minimumsecurityprison.Ihadneverreallybeeninthat
kindof environmentbutIhadsome touch pointstoit.It capturedmy
attention.
Maybe a monthafterwe made the grant or twomonthsafterwe made the
grant, Cat came out and spentsome time outhere andmetwitha bunch of
people.We satdownforabout an hour.It was awesome.Iheardherstory.
The pitch wasnot a pitch.The pitchwas a conversationaboutthe importance
of whatshe was doingandwhyshe was doingit.It includedthe deep
intensityaroundherownstoryandthenthe creationof DefyVenturesfive
yearsago.
Catherine Hoke : Six.
Brad Feld: Six yearsago as inCat's words,her secondchance.
Brad Feld: Thisviewof ...So many thingslinkedtogetherforme,right?The spiritof the
entrepreneur,the intensityof thiswomanwhoIwasnow sittingacrossfrom
for 15 or 20 minutes,the emotional intensityof herstory.Notjustof herself,
but of the work she wascalledto andwas doing.The linktodiversity,the link

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to entrepreneurship.Allof these thingsweretogether.Afterabout30
minutes,IthinkIsaidsomethinglike,"Hey,Cat.Stop.I'min.You got me.
What can I do?" She said,"The bestthingyou coulddo to reallygetinvolved
inthisand to understanditisto come to prisonfor a day."I said,"Done."
Catherine Hoke : My jawdropped.
Brad Feld: Yeah.
Catherine Hoke : It was soeasy.
Brad Feld: "Do I have to tell youmore?""No,no,no.When?"We organizedadate for
the graduationof the EIT program or the DefyProgramwiththe EITs. It was a
six-monthprogram.Thiswasa graduationdayinLandcaster,at the prisonin
Landcasterjustoutside the Mojave Desertarea.What isit,about an hour
north of L.A.or somethinglike that?
Brad Feld: Mark Suster,whohadgone to anotherDefyeventalready...Thiswashis
second.He and I invitedabunchof I wouldsaycombinationentrepreneurs
and VCs.Prettybroadrange in San Francisco,L.A.mostly,buta few from
elsewhere andthensome fromColorado.A groupfromTechstarscame with
me from here.We wentoutand we had a day that I wouldcharacterize asa
top 10 peaklife experience.Itwasn'tbestlife experience butpeakinthe
contextof the emotional intensity,whatIlearnedfromit,whatitcausedme
to reflectonat manydifferentlevelsversusjustyouhave thisamazing
experience butit'sone-dimensional amazingexperience.Thiswasamulti-
dimensional amazingexperience anditwasina contextthatwas insome
wayscompletelyforeignbecause itwasinthe gymnasiumata maximum
securityprison.
Brad Feld: Afterawhile,youforget.Youfeellikeyou're inthe gymnasiuminyourhigh
school.Thenyoulookup andyou see the cage uptop witha guy witha gun
overyou watching.
Brad Feld: Whenyouhave food,you realize thatyou're eatinginatotallyseparate area
fromthe EITs.They're not able to eatyour food.Whenyougo to the
bathroom,yourealize thatthey're havingtogo to the bathroomsomewhere
else.Youhave these brief moments thatremindyoubutinthiscontextof
feelingcompletelylikepeers.Notfeelinglike peersbutbeingpeers.Being
involvedfullywithasetof people whoare notpart of your normal
experience inlife.

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Brad Feld: Again,youtake thiscontextacross many,manydifferentdimensionsof
learning.One thatstandsoutfor me,I thinkthat wasthe one ... Like yousaid,
it smacksyouin the face.Whichwas the one that smackedme in the face?
There were 20 or 30 throughoutthe day,but I rememberhavingositdown
afterthisone.LiterallyIwanderedover.There wasanareawhere there was
some chairs,where there were some snacks.Ijustwentoverandsat in that
area forabout five minutesandregrouped.The discussionwasthe following.
It was midwaythroughthe day.We had alreadydone a thingcalledWalkthe
Line,whichIwrote about inmy blogpost,whichforcedme to reallyconfront
the notionof privilege andthe ideathatit'sveryeasyas a successful white
male whogrewup ina middle classfamilywithlovingparentsandwenttoa
great college ...All of thatstuff.It'seasyto talkaboutit.
It's a whole otherthingtoimmerse yourself inacontextwhere itstandsout
and shinesthisgiantline onyou.The Walkthe Line exercise ispartof that,
where youreallystartto grok it.ThenI have thismomentwhere I'mtalking
to ...I don't rememberthe EIT'sname but I rememberhisfaceswell.You
don't reallywalkuptosomeone andsay,"So whatare youin for?"It's not
that kindof a conversationbutyou're havingaconversation.Idon't
rememberwhattriggereditbuthe startedto tell me hisstory.Hisstory was
the following.Whenhe was10, hisoldersisterwasrapedin frontof him.He
decidedat10 that hisjobwas to protecthisoldersister.Whenhe was17, his
oldersisterwasbeingregularlybeatenupbyherboyfriend.He decided,"My
jobis to protectmy oldersister."Eventhoughthe oldersisterwouldsay,"No,
no,no," he decidedtogo kickthe shitout of the boyfriendsohe did.
In the middle of it,the boyfriendhadagun.The boyfriendpulledthe gunon
thiskid.He knocksthe gun outof the boyfriend'shand.Gunfallsonthe
ground.Theyscramble forthe gun. Right?Loose gun.You're goingto
scramble forthe gun. The gun goesoff.It shootsthe boyfriendinthe leg.
Doesnot kill the boyfriend.Justshootshiminthe leg.Breakupthe fight.
Copscome.He endsup witha 60-year prisonsentence.
JerryColonna: Jesus.60 years?
Brad Feld: 60-year prisonsentence.The kidis17 at the time.Now we finishedour
conversation.Isatdownand whatI thoughtabout forfive minuteswas,
"What wouldbe the storyif in the absence of hisupbringingat17, I wasthe
kidthat got inthe fightand wrestledforthe otherkid'sgun,whichwentoff
and shotthe other kidinthe leg?"I'd be a fuckinghero.I'd be the frontpage
of the newspaper."WhiteKidSavesOlderSisterfromBadBoyfriend."Right?I
justsat there withit.That was mymoment.Iwent, "Yep.I don't evenhave a
beginningof anunderstandingof this."It'sfuckedupand it'snot right.That
persondoesn'tdeserve this.Notonlydoeshe notdeserve this.Independent
of that,he deservesmyrespect.He'sanotherperson.He wasina situation,

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circumstance,a setof experiencesthatresultedinhimbeingincarceratedfor
probablymostof hisadultlife.Justthatdynamicshockedme.
JerryColonna: Well letme tell youmyreaction.Ihave six brothersand sisters.I'mnumber
six of seven.My youngestbrother,myonlyyoungbrother,isJohn.WhenI
was 12 and he was10, we livedinan apartmentonthe secondfloorin
Brooklyninthishouse.Iwas lookingoutthe backwindow andI saw thisboy
on the otherside of the backyard throwingrocksat my brother.My jobwas
to defendmybrotherbecause Igrew upin a lotof violence athome.WhatI
internalizedwas,"Theycanhitme but they're notgoingto hithim."I raced
downstairsandI grabbedthatkid.I pulledhimoverthe fence andIbeathis
face up. I oftenthinkof thatstory because there'saHulkinside of me.That's
one of mysuperpowers.
Whenyouwere tellingthatstory,there'saHulkinside of thatboy because
he'sstill a boy.The onlydifferencebetweenhimandme isthat there wasn't
a gun because Iwouldhave killedhim.Iwouldhave killedhim.WhatIcome
away withfromthat story,andwe'll go there ina second,isnotjust the
fuckedupnessof ourprisonsystem.It'sso well-discussedinthat
documentary,13th,the Netflix documentary,orthe inherentracismorthe
economicdiscriminationthatexistsinoursociety.The similarity...Cat,from
your story,Brad,from yourstory,from my reaction,the similarityof all of our
experiences.It'sreallyonlyminordifferencesthat thencreate these major
differencesinoutcome.It'sadifference of circumstance.It'sadifference of
timing.It'sa difference of meansandmotive.
The emotional base of wantingtoprotecta sibling,youdon'thave tohave
gone to prisonto be able to connectthat experience.The emotional base of
feelingwipedoutbyhumiliationandhavingyourself-loathingtriggeredby
shame,youdon't have tohave gone to prisonto rememberthatfeeling.
Brad Feld: Take that thoughtand now do that 20 more timesondifferentdimensions
overthe course of 12 hours.That's what the tripwas.
Catherine Hoke : While hearingabunchof businesspitches.
Brad Feld: While hearingabunchof businesspitches.
Catherine Hoke : Thisis the Shark Tankcompetition.
Brad Feld: Right.Let me go to that.It was 19 more differentvectors.
Brad Feld: Theyweren'tdifferentstories.Theywere totallydifferentvectorsof layersof
oneself againstthe back.I'll give youapositive one tohangonto that's an
example againstthe backdropof aday of SharkTank-like pitchcompetitions.

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We startedwith45. That wentdownto15 that gave pitches.Again,there's
75 volunteers.We've got15 differentplaceswherethey're all pitching.That
thengoesto the semifinals.Orthe 15 goesto the finalsof five thatthenpitch
to everybody.There'sone winner.Thisisinterrelievedwithabunchof
activitiesandinteractions,like the Walkthe Line interactionthatItalk about
on myblogpost aboutprivilege.Again,18otherthings.Atthe endthey
graduate.Theyweara cap andgown.
Catherine Hoke : Most of themforthe firsttime intheirlives.
Brad Feld: Yeah,I know.Justtake a breath.Firsttime intheirlives.Theymatriculate so
theywalkacross the stage withthe cheering,theirname beingcalled.They
geta certificate fromaprogram at BaylorUniversity.Theyactuallygeta
tangible certificate likeyouwould.One of the guyssays,"Thisisthe firsttime
I've beenona stage since Iwas inkindergarten."
JerryColonna: Oh mygod.
Brad Feld: I don't know.He was inhis30s. Those kindsof momentswhere youthink
aboutthe difference ...Oh,bythe way,the unambiguousandcomplete and
total joyand pride on thisman'sface inthat moment.Complete.The most
radiantjoyyou can see fromanyone ina situationwhere withinanhour,he
getsto go back intohissix-by-eightcell andIgetto withmy friendsgetinthe
SUV that drove usthere and takesusto the airportand we geton our plane
and flyhome.
Brad Feld: That kindof intensity,itdoesn'tleave.ThiswasaFridaythat we didthis.Lots
of email overthe weekendwith75of my closestfriendsandMark'sclosest
friends.Lotsof people Iknew butIhad nevermetbefore.That'sinteresting.
Thisis the firstplace you've everphysicallyspenttimetogetherwasinthis
context.Almosteveryone Iinteractedwith,evenby Sunday,wasstill not
evenbeginningtofinishprocessing.
Brad Feld: Notjust at an emotional level,anintellectual ...Whatam I goingtodo with
this?How doI want to relate tothis?In our superbusylives,where
everybodyisdoingwhatevertheywantandpickyourentrepreneurialcliché,
whichyoudo such a magnificent jobof holdingupandlightingonfire over
and overagain,all of a suddentohave thisdroppedinthe middle of that.It
changesyourperspective notina,"Oh mygosh. My life ismeaningless.I
mustdo somethingelse."It'slike,"Well time out.Thatdeal that'snot
happening,thatcustomerIdidn'tget,the software release that'stwoweeks
later.Time out."Change yourview onwhat isactuallymeaningful inthatand
howyou relate toit.

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JerryColonna: Yeah.Cat, anythingtoadd to whatBrad said?What's yourreaction?
Catherine Hoke : I heartheirstorieseverydaybutI didn'tknow thisstory aboutthe guy
shootingthe guyinthe leg.It'swhat I see everyday.Iwantto cry butI want
to cry because mybloodisboiling.A lotof what makesme goodat my work
ismy rage.I stay reallyclose tothe rage. I intentionallyengageinthingsthat
make me mad. EverymorningI reada newslettercalledThe Marshall Project
that talksaboutthe injusticesinoursector.It's calledthe criminal justice
sectorbut the injustice thatplaguesitiswhatkeepsme angry.A lot of people
hearstorieslike thisorthey'll watch13th and they'll say,"Oh,thatsucks.
That's screwedup."I like togetmad so that I dothings.
Catherine Hoke : I have to do things.
Brad Feld: It's yourfuel.
Catherine Hoke : It's my fuel.Istayreallyclose toit because thenI'mjust...I'm so driven.I'm
so impatienttocreate change everyday.
JerryColonna: Right.Brad and I justgave each othera look.Rememberthe conversation
yesterdaywe were havingwiththispeergroupaboutthe value of anger.One
of the pointsImade,and I have oftenmade thispoint,isthankthe fucking
Lord that Martin LutherKinggot angry.
Catherine Hoke : I'm a veryangry person.
JerryColonna: Right.Thankthe Lord that RosaParks wasjust fuckingpissedoff.
JerryColonna: There isa place forrage. There isa place for anger.WhenI was 12, that was
an inappropriate expressionof myrage butmy rage was appropriate.Change
happensIthinkwhenwe findthe jetfuel of passion.Rage happens.The rage
you're talkingabouthappenswhenwe give afuck.
Catherine Hoke : Well it'snot onlythatthisguy isin prisonfor60 years.It's alsothe way that
he'sviewedbyotherhumansasbeingsubhuman.I'msure that hischarge
was probablyattemptedmurderorsomethinglikethat.The menandwomen
that we workwithhave made mistakesbutthenthe waythat theyare
labeledandseenandthe interestingblogpostsaboutourwork,people who
neversayit to myface butwho talkaboutmy people asbeingdisgustingand
horrible andirredeemable,ithurtsme andmakesme more angry. I justwant
the worldto see whatthey're missing.
JerryColonna: You know,overthe summerIdid a podcastconversationwithanincredible

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womannamedKondaMason. KondarunsImpact HUB Oakland.Itwas a
powerful experience forme because ultimatelywhat we endedupspeaking
aboutwas the otheringthatoccurs in our lives.
JerryColonna: Thisis yetanotherpopulationthatwe "other"withacapital O and we make
otherthan ourselves,more thanlikelytoprotectourselves.
JerryColonna: Right.From the possibilitythat...Justas I saidto Kondaduringthe summer,I
have my biases.Ihave myracism.It is part and parcel of whoI am.I have my
rage.My rage can expressitself ininappropriatewaysanditcan expressitself
inappropriate ways.Partof my learningtobe an adultislearninghow tobe
intouch withmyown feelings.
Catherine Hoke : Yeah,I was justas guiltyof this.I talkedaboutmyfriendwhowaskilledand
my feelingsthatresultedfromthatsoI understandwhere thatcomesfrom.I
thinkthe lack of awarenessinourcountry... 30% of 23-year-oldsalready
have a criminal history. 30%.
JerryColonna: Well here'sastatisticthat I justsaw.Again,I justwatched13th. The United
Statesis5% of the world'spopulationand25% of its inmates.
Catherine Hoke : Yeah.Once you go behindbars,youhave a 76.6% chance of beingrearrested
withinfive years.The statthatmakesme the saddestisthat 70% of the
childrenof people inprisonfollowintheirparents'footstepstoprison.It'sa
generational legacythatishandeddownandthat isaccepted.That's the
otherpart of mywhy's thatI believe thatone of the biggestproblemsinour
countryis a lack of positive male role modelsforboyswhoare growingupin
the communitieswherewe serve.Iwastaught to take mySATs and to geta
goodjob.They were taughtthatgoingto prisonis a rite of passage.It's
actuallylookedatas a cool thingto do a lot of timesor the onlypath where
youearn yourstripes.Thenwhentheyactuallygetthere,theyrealize thatit's
not whatit's made outto be.Then theythinkthatthere'sno otherpath
because people are notlike youandBrad.
Catherine Hoke : There are notmany rehabilitationopportunities.Almostnoone seesthat
these guys,manyof themare the diamondinthe rough.Theyholdso much
opportunityandpossibility.
JerryColonna: You know,anotherpointthatI oftenmake isthe universal desiresforlove,
safetyandbelonging.

Page 14 of 18
JerryColonna: One of the many,manyexpressionsof the complicationsof beinghumanis
that we can pervertthe wishesforlove,safetyandbelongingintoreplication
of that,whichwe see.The seven-year-oldgirl whowatchesherfathercommit
an act of crime,inorderto feel thatfairhuman needforlove,safetyand
belongingfromthe primaryfocus,those parental figures,mayinfact
replicate the experience inone formoranother.It'sthe perversionof the
wishto belongthatmaybe infact for me the most heartbreakingbecause
maybe at some level whatyoubothare tryingto do withDefyisto create an
alternate universeinwhichpeople getasense of love,safetyandbelonging.
Whentheywalkthe line,theywalkawayfeelingloved,feelinglikethey
belongandfinallyfeelinglike they're safe.
Catherine Hoke : Well inthat line exercise,we walkthrough45 minutesof reallydifficult
statements.People steptothe line if the statementistrue.It'sthingslike,"I
heardgunshotsinmy neighborhoodgrowingup,"or,"Iwas convictedof
murder."I've done arrestable thingseventhoughIhaven'tbeenarrested.
People are revealingverydifficultthingsabouttheirpast.Thenat the endof
the exercise,one of the questionsthatIask is,"EventhoughI have made
myself vulnerableinthisexercise andIhave exposedthingsthatIwould
nevernormallytalkabout,here todayrightnow,Ifeel safe,acceptedand
loved."Idon'tthinkI've everhad a situationwhere ...100% of the people on
bothsidesof the line,the executivesandthe EITs,are at the line onthat and
theystart to celebrate because we're inamaximumsecurityprisonwitha
guy witha gunshot...The gun above,the correctional officerwatchingusand
people are feelingsafe,acceptedandloved.That'swhatIlive for.
JerryColonna: Right.You know,togo back to Milarepafor a moment,noone is
irredeemable.Noone isgarbage.There are acts that are incrediblypainful
that have hurt thousandsandthousandsof people.The humanstorydoesn't
endthere.
JerryColonna: I thinkwhatyou're doing...We haven'teventalkedaboutthe arc of
entrepreneurshipasa meansfortransformationbutIthinkwhat you're doing
here issuch a brave reframingof yourown experience,Cat,andputting
yourself onthe line bydoingthat.I can justimagine someoneislisteningto
thispodcastright now and like youat12 issaying,"Butyou don't
understand."Letme speaktothat personfora moment.We do.We know
yousuffered.Imyself have hadthe shitkickedoutof me.I've beenrobbed.I
grewup ina roughneighborhoodinBrooklyn.We were robbedonaregular
basis.My fatherwas beaten,hadhislegbrokeninthree places.Isaw him
carriedintomy home.The answerto thatviolence insocietyisnotmore
violence.Everysingle wisdomtraditionthatI've everbeenexposedto
teachesthat.People willcite the OldTestaments,"Aneye foraneye."That's
not the full story.

Page 15 of 18
Catherine Hoke : Right.The realityforthe people thatwe serve is95% of themgetout, even
aftermurderor whatevercrime ...Today'sinmate istomorrow'sneighbor.
What kindof neighbordoyouwant cominghome to you?
Catherine Hoke : Punishmentalonedoesn'twork.Anadulttime outishealthyforpeople who
needone,whichmostof my guysneededanadulttime out,butthenwhat?
WhenI hear aboutthe crimesthat theycommitted,andmanyof themare
worse thanthe situationthatBraddescribed, Icry as I feel painfortheir
victims.Theyfeel the painfortheirvictims.
JerryColonna: Yeah.
Catherine Hoke : We nevertake awayfromthe fact that theyhave done damagingthings.I
have done damagingthingsinmylife.Theyhave done damagingthingsin
theirlives.Theymade badchoices.WhenIunderstandthe whythatledthem
to those choices,Ialmostalwaysunderstandwhatledthemthere.Mylimits
of grace have beentestedmanytimes.I'll tell youwhenIheardthe very
worstthingsthat I've seen.Iwentto Rwandaand I wasthere for about10
days.I was touringgenocide memorialsandseeingliterallyblood-stained
clothingof babiesandwomenwhohadhad theirheadshackedoff by
machetes.Onthe lastday of mytrip inRwanda,I was invited toaRwandan
prison.Thiswasafterspendingnine dayscryingonbehalf of the victimsof
the genocide.
I was there 15 years afterthe genocide hadoccurredroughly.The waythat
people were sentenced...If theywere caughtforparticipatinginthe
genocide forbasicallytakingmachetesandhackingoff heads,theywere
givena max of 15 yearsinprison,those whowere caught.WhenI wentinto
the prison,I metwhatI had alreadybelievedwere the sickestmonstersthat
had everwalkedthe face of the Earth. If you can cut off the headsof babies...
I've neverseensomethingworse thanthat.Iwentintothat prisonwiththe
sickestfeelinginmystomach.Idon't know whathappenedtome but as I sat
across fromthese perpetratorsandheardtheirstories, Ifoundmyselffeeling
empathy,eventhoughIwasso disgustedbythe actsthat theyhad
committed.Manyof themwere teenagerswhentheywerebrainwashedinto
thismilitia,beingtaughtthatthe people whotheykilledwerethe enemyand
that theywere nothumanbeings.
Catherine Hoke : That in factif theydidn'tparticipate inthisgenocide,thattheywouldbe
killedaswell.Theyweretrainedtolookatotherpeople asnotbeinghuman
beings.Itdidn'tevermake whattheydidokaywithme,but I thought,"What
happensif these guysare notrehabilitated?"They've beeninprisonfor15
years,probablywithnightmareseverynightof the actsthat theycommitted.

Page 16 of 18
If theydon't getredemptionintheirlives,whatcouldhappenagain?They're
beingreleased.They're beingreleased.
JerryColonna: Wow.I want to thankyou bothfor sharing.Brad,I don't know if there'sany
lastwordsyou wantto share before we startto winddown.
Brad Feld: I'll justendwithone more example thatreallysticksinmyheadthatwas
profoundforme.There wasanother... I'm goingto call hima kidbecause he
couldn'thave beenmore than22 or 23. One of the thingshe didup on stage
was he reada beautiful poemthathe hadwrittenthatday or maybe the day
before.Itwasa beautifulpoem.Articulate,powerful.AsIwassittingthere ...
I had knownhisstorybecause Ihad talkedtohim earlier.He wasinfor triple
murder.He had had a conversation...Ibelieve he wasthe same guythathad
a conversationwithone of the friendsthathadcome withme who wasa
woman.He had saidto her as theywere talking,"Were youuncomfortable
here todaycominghere?"She said,"Yeah,Iwas a little uncomfortable whenI
came here."He said,"Well youshouldbe.Ikilledthreepeople."The
conversationbetweenthe veryattractive,white,30something-year-oldand
the tough,muscley23-year-oldblackkid.
At 17 he didthat because that'show he earnedhiswayintohisgang. There
was a lotmore to the story.Like,"Iwas supposedtokill one personandit
turnedintoa biggerthing.Ikilledthree andgotcaught."In thiscontext,in
thiscultural contextwhere likethe Rwandastory,thatwas the cultural norm
he was in.
Brad Feld: I rememberhimreadingthispoemandIstartedto cry because he readthe
poemand if I hadn'tknownthe story andI wasn't inthiscontextand he was
standingona stage at Harvard withhisclassmates,itwouldhave been...I
couldmap to that view soeasily.
JerryColonna: Yeah.
Brad Feld: Again,the linkage between...Ithinkthe word'empathy'isa magnificentone
inthat context.Didhe do somethingterrible?Of course.Shouldhe be
punishedforthe terrible thingthathe did?Yes.Is he unredeemable,
irredeemable,whateverthe rightwordis?No.
Brad Feld: Do we setthingsup withthe currentsystemandstructure that we have in
such a way as to make itverydifficulttohave itevolve inapositive way?Yes.
Are there lessonsseparate fromthiscontext?The contextof prisonandthe
environmentthatwe can applyto otherelementsof ourlife.Fuckyeah.

Page 17 of 18
JerryColonna: Yeah.
Brad Feld: Right?The injustice thatisn'ta murder.Why dowe react to it?
Brad Feld: The personwhoscrewsup or offendsus.Whycan't she forgive?
Brad Feld: The failure thatyouhave,that one has ina certaincontext,whyshouldthat
generate self-hate?
Brad Feld: Keepongoing.I saidearlier,the thingthatwasso powerful aboutthisone
day wasnot one of these experiencesonone dimension.Itwassomany
experienceson20 plusdimensionsthatI'mstill processingtwomonthslater.
JerryColonna: Wow.
Catherine Hoke : Can I ...
JerryColonna: Yeah,go ahead.
Catherine Hoke : A lotof thistalkhas beenaboutthe sadnessandthe rage and all that.
JerryColonna: That's my thing.
Catherine Hoke : I knowbut I can't help...I don'twant to be pullingona hairbut I do wantto
talkabout the joyfor one minute.
JerryColonna: Sure.
Catherine Hoke : 95% of the people thatwe serve at Defyhave beenconvictedof violent
crime.Whentheygetout, we workwiththemandthe joythat I see from
seeingthemsucceedisamazing.Ourrecidivismrate islessthanfive percent.
JerryColonna: Wow.
Catherine Hoke : Almostall of themmake it.Recidivismaloneisjustthe measure of failure.I
am not intothat.I like tosee successtoo.We have incubatedandfinanced
165 of theirbusinessesaftertheygetout.Theybecome ourverybest
employers.Ourguyshave created350 jobsfor othergrads and otherpeople
intheircommunities.Theybecome giversof opportunityandlifetoother
stigmatizedpeople.It'ssocool to watch themmake it.This weekIwasin
NewYork at our post-release SharkTankcompetition,where we actually

Page 18 of 18
award seriousfinancialprizesandhelpthemtoraise equityfrominvestors
because theirbusinessesare real.We have a guy whostarteda tailoring
business.Innine monthsnow,he'salreadydone $150,000 inrevenue and
he'shiredI think10 or 11 people.
Thenwe see theirchildrenaswell.Ilive forthatdaywhen...It happensa lot,
whenI meetthe kidandthe kidsays, "I'mgoingto be justlike mydaddy.I'm
takingoverthe familybusinesswhenIgrow up."To see the oddschange
completely,it'swhywe're calledDefy.Defythe oddsandthe stereotypesand
the perceptions.That'salsowhatI live for.
JerryColonna: Wow.Well thankyou.That was a beautiful note toendon.We will endit
here.

Reboot Podcast #53 — Transform your hustle

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Reboot Podcast #53 — Transform your hustle